Fully Articulated
Member
- Mar 19, 2003
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Sikorsky Wins
- Thread starter helicopper
- Start date
i didn't see any sea kings for sale...yet.
is that where they will show up when the time comes?
once they do show up, i guess the price will be very indicative of the state of repair/disrepair of them. If they're at rock bottom prices then we can assume it is true that they are pieces of garbage.
is that where they will show up when the time comes?
once they do show up, i guess the price will be very indicative of the state of repair/disrepair of them. If they're at rock bottom prices then we can assume it is true that they are pieces of garbage.
Vortex Ring
Advanced
- Jun 3, 2003
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Can't say for sure about logging but I know for a fact that with the current instrument panel used you could not certify them for night or IFR in any western country! Neat uh....all we do is fly them around at 150' in total IMC and then throw them into a hover to dip the sonar in same conditions over the N. Atlantic.
:unsure: :blink:
That is a big part of why the new machine is very badly needed.
Stripped of all our silly cold war sub-hunting gear and conehead stations, I don't see why it wouldn't make a good life-support system for a hook. Oh yeah, your AMEs will also want to strip that folding head off the beast and those silly sponsons, so like Fully Articulated has said, good luck at the auction. We will have fond memories but eagerly hop into the new rides with big sh*t-eatin' grins.
:unsure: :blink: That is a big part of why the new machine is very badly needed.
Stripped of all our silly cold war sub-hunting gear and conehead stations, I don't see why it wouldn't make a good life-support system for a hook. Oh yeah, your AMEs will also want to strip that folding head off the beast and those silly sponsons, so like Fully Articulated has said, good luck at the auction. We will have fond memories but eagerly hop into the new rides with big sh*t-eatin' grins.
Bullet Remington
Senior
- Mar 9, 2003
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There'd be a heck of alot of work to convert the old Sea Pigs to civivie.
As VR stated, the first thing that one would have to do is strip it of the excess weight. Of course one would already have the advantage of not having that useless was of skin called a Navigator onboard. That aside, you'd want to get rid of the sponsons and those pop-out floats that do nothing! The MR Folding system and the MR Head, the radome and the sonar probe, and of course the pylon fold system and all that hardware.
One would probably gain 1500 lbs by removing those big honkin wire harness, most of which do absolutely nothing. As well as both of the outdated useless side saddle panels. That would probably give ya another couple of 100 pounds.
Then of course, there's the tracability factor of all the lifed components. Since Transport don't recognize the mil system, and mil standard, fairly well everything will have to be O/H'd by an approved shop. Makes for a heck of alot of work, and even more in dollars.
One can only assume that an outfit that has these machines in use and has a number of spares in stock (Someone like the old HeliPro outfit), may make a dollar of it. Otherwise, for the ordinary small outfit with a couple of machines, ya better have a backer with very deep pockets.
Frankly, I believe there may be some merit to converting the machines to commercial use. Basically one would have the advantage of starting with a Shortski already. But given the cost of type approval from scratch, my pockets aren't that deep!!
Kind of a waste of alot of potential, I believe.
On the other hand, very happy, and will be happier when the drivers get to actually flog the new ride around the Atlantic. ( The other pond doesn't matter!!
Other may feel free to differ.
BR
As VR stated, the first thing that one would have to do is strip it of the excess weight. Of course one would already have the advantage of not having that useless was of skin called a Navigator onboard. That aside, you'd want to get rid of the sponsons and those pop-out floats that do nothing! The MR Folding system and the MR Head, the radome and the sonar probe, and of course the pylon fold system and all that hardware.
One would probably gain 1500 lbs by removing those big honkin wire harness, most of which do absolutely nothing. As well as both of the outdated useless side saddle panels. That would probably give ya another couple of 100 pounds.
Then of course, there's the tracability factor of all the lifed components. Since Transport don't recognize the mil system, and mil standard, fairly well everything will have to be O/H'd by an approved shop. Makes for a heck of alot of work, and even more in dollars.
One can only assume that an outfit that has these machines in use and has a number of spares in stock (Someone like the old HeliPro outfit), may make a dollar of it. Otherwise, for the ordinary small outfit with a couple of machines, ya better have a backer with very deep pockets.
Frankly, I believe there may be some merit to converting the machines to commercial use. Basically one would have the advantage of starting with a Shortski already. But given the cost of type approval from scratch, my pockets aren't that deep!!
Kind of a waste of alot of potential, I believe.
On the other hand, very happy, and will be happier when the drivers get to actually flog the new ride around the Atlantic. ( The other pond doesn't matter!!
Other may feel free to differ.
BR
Fully Articulated
Member
- Mar 19, 2003
- 45
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Finally!
Someone who 'gets it' re: the potential of using the SK after it's "Best Before Date".
Well done BR.
Someone who 'gets it' re: the potential of using the SK after it's "Best Before Date".
Well done BR.
he didn't mention anything about age, nor did he mention anything about them being peices of junk. He mentioned removeing unneeded items and overhauling all the components since transport doesn't recognise the militaries record keeping. I'm sure ACRO can work out a great deal on the overhaul prices.
I'm confused now (which isn't a stretch) :wacko: Are they junk, or are they just not cost effective to bring back to an airworthy standard?
Answer this for me, the sea king that did the disco on the deck of the ship, what ever happened to it? Was it turned into scrap or did it get it's wings back?
I'm confused now (which isn't a stretch) :wacko: Are they junk, or are they just not cost effective to bring back to an airworthy standard?
Answer this for me, the sea king that did the disco on the deck of the ship, what ever happened to it? Was it turned into scrap or did it get it's wings back?
Fully Articulated
Member
- Mar 19, 2003
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Its a life-sized training aid. It will never fly again. . . unless you want to buy it and try it.MagSeal said:
Bullet Remington
Senior
- Mar 9, 2003
- 268
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Maggie, Isaid nothing about the age nor "them being pieces of junk" because I believe neither of your statements are relevant. There are a myrade of machine, both plank and flig wing with a hell of a lot more years, hours and cycles on them
the the misaligned Sea pig.
Besides, i'm well over 50 and I stiil have at loeast 20 more years in me. Not as speedy as some but a hell of alot more dependable!!
I would suspect, based on my history with the Sea Pig and the mil, that the supply system would be the main culpurit in the decision not to rebuild the Dico Queen. I too have seen worst. specifically in the Sea Pig world rebuilt. However, the mil supply system is, to say the least, 30 years behind the times. For example, lets assume I'm in Shearwater and need a starter/generator. I know that CHC over at Halifax airport has 5 in stock and they are willing to lend one to me. Unfortunately, I can't go over, grap it and slap it on my Sea Pig. CHC MAY not be an approved vendor, plus, I'd have to go through our supply system to gert a replacement AND I'd have to have authorization from everybody and possibly the hanger janitor. I would not be able to replace the loaner unit from CHC for approximately 6 to 9 months. In the interim, CHC has a rash of Starter /gen snags and needs the loaner back. Since it was overhauled when they loaned it to me, I have to overhaul it to give it back. The mil's civie overhaul shop is in TO. By the time I got it back from O/H would be anywhere from 3 to 6 months, if not more! (It's a union shop by the way.) Ya think CHC would help me out again, if this had indeed happend? I think not.
By the time the Deck Flop queen was rebuilt, we'd probably have 5 or 6 S92's bouncing off the decks.
I have no qualms about the technical expertise of neither ex-mil drivers nor mechs. Neither do a heck of alot of operators, both plank and flingwing. I have been DOM, QA Manger, bush grunt and hanger S**T for a numer of companies. Not one of them has ever refused to have me back.
Again, the only thing wrong with the Sea Pig, other than it's utilization, aboard ship, is the electronics. 95% of the snags that keep it out of service is the avionics. Not the mechanical.
Based on my experience with the machine, I believe it has a good many years left in it as a civie log hauler, or heavy lift machine of any kind.
Of course I stiil maintain that the materials used in the Sea Pigs airframe construstion is much superior to the 'plastics" uswed in the later day throw-away machines!
And of course, my experience is based on actually working on both types of machines, not on what is written by the totally uinknowing press. Your opinions are based on??
the the misaligned Sea pig.
Besides, i'm well over 50 and I stiil have at loeast 20 more years in me. Not as speedy as some but a hell of alot more dependable!!
I would suspect, based on my history with the Sea Pig and the mil, that the supply system would be the main culpurit in the decision not to rebuild the Dico Queen. I too have seen worst. specifically in the Sea Pig world rebuilt. However, the mil supply system is, to say the least, 30 years behind the times. For example, lets assume I'm in Shearwater and need a starter/generator. I know that CHC over at Halifax airport has 5 in stock and they are willing to lend one to me. Unfortunately, I can't go over, grap it and slap it on my Sea Pig. CHC MAY not be an approved vendor, plus, I'd have to go through our supply system to gert a replacement AND I'd have to have authorization from everybody and possibly the hanger janitor. I would not be able to replace the loaner unit from CHC for approximately 6 to 9 months. In the interim, CHC has a rash of Starter /gen snags and needs the loaner back. Since it was overhauled when they loaned it to me, I have to overhaul it to give it back. The mil's civie overhaul shop is in TO. By the time I got it back from O/H would be anywhere from 3 to 6 months, if not more! (It's a union shop by the way.) Ya think CHC would help me out again, if this had indeed happend? I think not.
By the time the Deck Flop queen was rebuilt, we'd probably have 5 or 6 S92's bouncing off the decks.
I have no qualms about the technical expertise of neither ex-mil drivers nor mechs. Neither do a heck of alot of operators, both plank and flingwing. I have been DOM, QA Manger, bush grunt and hanger S**T for a numer of companies. Not one of them has ever refused to have me back.
Again, the only thing wrong with the Sea Pig, other than it's utilization, aboard ship, is the electronics. 95% of the snags that keep it out of service is the avionics. Not the mechanical.
Based on my experience with the machine, I believe it has a good many years left in it as a civie log hauler, or heavy lift machine of any kind.
Of course I stiil maintain that the materials used in the Sea Pigs airframe construstion is much superior to the 'plastics" uswed in the later day throw-away machines!
And of course, my experience is based on actually working on both types of machines, not on what is written by the totally uinknowing press. Your opinions are based on??
My opinions are based on what I read in here and also from the 'dreaded' news.
There was another thread discussing the merits of news reports about a topic, I guess if the media is portraying a specific downside to an organization, it must exist. I don't believe every news media outlet makes up stories. They may embellish them, but it isn't made up. In this case, the media portrayed the aircraft as truly unsafe, thus putting pressure on the government to make a change. Every time a bug was splattered across the windscreen , the media portrayed it as a near disaster with crews lives hanging by a thread.
What truly burns me is that we have such a boondoggle waste of taxpayers money. There is no excuse for it, and having new aircraft doesn't necessarily mean that that waste will stop. You will likely still be short starter generators for the new aircraft just like you were for the old ones.
You also said that most of the unserviceablity was due to avionics...is that airframe avionics or systems avionics. I can't see the merits in buying a new aircraft if it's the sonar that's not working right, or the radar....
If the aircraft was in good shape, components in good shape, and basic aircraft wiring in good shape. It seems to me like the aircraft was replaced because the proverbial ashtray was full.
There was another thread discussing the merits of news reports about a topic, I guess if the media is portraying a specific downside to an organization, it must exist. I don't believe every news media outlet makes up stories. They may embellish them, but it isn't made up. In this case, the media portrayed the aircraft as truly unsafe, thus putting pressure on the government to make a change. Every time a bug was splattered across the windscreen , the media portrayed it as a near disaster with crews lives hanging by a thread.
What truly burns me is that we have such a boondoggle waste of taxpayers money. There is no excuse for it, and having new aircraft doesn't necessarily mean that that waste will stop. You will likely still be short starter generators for the new aircraft just like you were for the old ones.
You also said that most of the unserviceablity was due to avionics...is that airframe avionics or systems avionics. I can't see the merits in buying a new aircraft if it's the sonar that's not working right, or the radar....
If the aircraft was in good shape, components in good shape, and basic aircraft wiring in good shape. It seems to me like the aircraft was replaced because the proverbial ashtray was full.
Bullet Remington
Senior
- Mar 9, 2003
- 268
- 0
Maggie: (I have no idea how to cut and paste. so bear with me.)
You stated" I guess if the media is portraying a specific downside to an organization, it must exist." I assume you are being facious (sp) here?? I believe nothing I hear until I actuallt see it. I sincerely doubt that any of the reporters reporting 90% of the dread, gloom and doom has ever actually been inside a Sea Pig, let alone on the ship nor observed the actual maintenance nor operational activities of the machine. I recall several years back, we had one land in a school football field, on a Saturday due to a MGB Chip lite. ( The Fuzz Blaster would not clear it.) Jeez, from the reports in the papers and on the ATV news ya'd figure the whole aircraft and crew was about 30 secinds from being on a first name basis with St Peter/ Pierre. Not to mention the calamity about to fall upon the school, the community and the people therein!!
You stated, " What truly burns me is that we have such a boondoogle of the taxpayers money." You as well as I and everybody else that is being robbed by the CCRA ( Crazed Cannibals and Rabid Animals) have every right to feel that way. This whole scenario could have and should have bben played out eons ago. But the question that I've always asked,"Who really cares about the military"? Except of course when your (being general not specific, with the your) town is flooded, or the power is off all across the province, or ya need some one to help you put out forest fires, or ya snowed in, or you or your kids got ya buttin a sling and got lost, hurt, fell of a mountain, (fill in as you see fit.)
The avionics that are the problem are primarily the "systems" avionics. Tubes up the Ying Yang and most, if not all at this date, very difficult to obtain. I do know that for a while the only place we could get them was somewhere over in Europe. Cech I believe it was. Add in the spiraling costs of overhauls (You may know what its like for MROs and Government contracts) and it keeps getting more and more expensive. I would venture to say that there is a certain MRO in Eastern Canada that have probaly made billions off the government, from the Sea Pig alone.
The second major kafflffel is the flight instruments. I can only assume how entertaining, for want of a better word, it would be for some of the raw (not flown Sea Pigs) drivers to try and do IFR work with that panel. I have a Com IFR Plank license and I hated being in the seat just watching. Scared the bejazz outa me.
Last couple Sea pigs I worked on had two wiring harnesses in it. They just put in the new one, blanked off the old one and left it in the machines!
You are of course correct wit your reference of the Starter / gen . Until the mil supply system wakes up and gets into the real world. its stiil going to be the same story. Different machine same old crap! Or they could do like they did with the CP140. Bring 5 on line and use the 6th as a rob machine for 4 years!!,
But that's irrelevant to the subject.
The basic airframe is as good as the civies, all the mil junk aside. The engines should be as well. Those machines and the engines are washed everyday it flys.
. Never missed a day when I was there.
Ashtray was never full!! Only one Sqdn Commander would let me smoke in the machine, and I had to use a Pepsi can!!
The merits, in my view, and some drivers may disagree, are; ya have a new machine, modern up-to-date equipment. with spares that can be provided by North American suppliers, and in the majority of cases ( Airframe manufacturer aside), can be obtained in Canada. Plus the machine "should" be easier to fly and maintain. Not to mention a heck of alot more dependable all way round.And that goes a heck of a long way to your mental and physical well being when you're dippin at 100 feet in full IMC, in a pitch black night with no horizon.
I honestly believe, that were we to take out some of the civilian nay-sayers and let them tag along for a couple of sorties, they'd quickly change their tune about the need for a new machine. I also believe that thier opinion of those boys (their younger than me and warfare is a young man's game) would drastically change to the positive, once people had actually seen what we demand of them and they provide. One of the reasons I liked the Air Force over the army. We sent our officers out to put their butts in a bind while we stayed home and hoped they bring our machine back!!
But then again, it could be just me!
You stated" I guess if the media is portraying a specific downside to an organization, it must exist." I assume you are being facious (sp) here?? I believe nothing I hear until I actuallt see it. I sincerely doubt that any of the reporters reporting 90% of the dread, gloom and doom has ever actually been inside a Sea Pig, let alone on the ship nor observed the actual maintenance nor operational activities of the machine. I recall several years back, we had one land in a school football field, on a Saturday due to a MGB Chip lite. ( The Fuzz Blaster would not clear it.) Jeez, from the reports in the papers and on the ATV news ya'd figure the whole aircraft and crew was about 30 secinds from being on a first name basis with St Peter/ Pierre. Not to mention the calamity about to fall upon the school, the community and the people therein!!
You stated, " What truly burns me is that we have such a boondoogle of the taxpayers money." You as well as I and everybody else that is being robbed by the CCRA ( Crazed Cannibals and Rabid Animals) have every right to feel that way. This whole scenario could have and should have bben played out eons ago. But the question that I've always asked,"Who really cares about the military"? Except of course when your (being general not specific, with the your) town is flooded, or the power is off all across the province, or ya need some one to help you put out forest fires, or ya snowed in, or you or your kids got ya buttin a sling and got lost, hurt, fell of a mountain, (fill in as you see fit.)
The avionics that are the problem are primarily the "systems" avionics. Tubes up the Ying Yang and most, if not all at this date, very difficult to obtain. I do know that for a while the only place we could get them was somewhere over in Europe. Cech I believe it was. Add in the spiraling costs of overhauls (You may know what its like for MROs and Government contracts) and it keeps getting more and more expensive. I would venture to say that there is a certain MRO in Eastern Canada that have probaly made billions off the government, from the Sea Pig alone.
The second major kafflffel is the flight instruments. I can only assume how entertaining, for want of a better word, it would be for some of the raw (not flown Sea Pigs) drivers to try and do IFR work with that panel. I have a Com IFR Plank license and I hated being in the seat just watching. Scared the bejazz outa me.
Last couple Sea pigs I worked on had two wiring harnesses in it. They just put in the new one, blanked off the old one and left it in the machines!
You are of course correct wit your reference of the Starter / gen . Until the mil supply system wakes up and gets into the real world. its stiil going to be the same story. Different machine same old crap! Or they could do like they did with the CP140. Bring 5 on line and use the 6th as a rob machine for 4 years!!,
But that's irrelevant to the subject.
The basic airframe is as good as the civies, all the mil junk aside. The engines should be as well. Those machines and the engines are washed everyday it flys.
. Never missed a day when I was there.
Ashtray was never full!! Only one Sqdn Commander would let me smoke in the machine, and I had to use a Pepsi can!!
The merits, in my view, and some drivers may disagree, are; ya have a new machine, modern up-to-date equipment. with spares that can be provided by North American suppliers, and in the majority of cases ( Airframe manufacturer aside), can be obtained in Canada. Plus the machine "should" be easier to fly and maintain. Not to mention a heck of alot more dependable all way round.And that goes a heck of a long way to your mental and physical well being when you're dippin at 100 feet in full IMC, in a pitch black night with no horizon.
I honestly believe, that were we to take out some of the civilian nay-sayers and let them tag along for a couple of sorties, they'd quickly change their tune about the need for a new machine. I also believe that thier opinion of those boys (their younger than me and warfare is a young man's game) would drastically change to the positive, once people had actually seen what we demand of them and they provide. One of the reasons I liked the Air Force over the army. We sent our officers out to put their butts in a bind while we stayed home and hoped they bring our machine back!!
But then again, it could be just me!
Fully Articulated
Member
- Mar 19, 2003
- 45
- 0
Good Points BR. At least you know something about the subject.
One point tho.... we dip at 40', not 100'
Here is that loverly panel you mentioned.
One point tho.... we dip at 40', not 100'
Here is that loverly panel you mentioned.
Fully Articulated
Member
- Mar 19, 2003
- 45
- 0
The piccie sasys it pretty much right.
