SWA MDW crash

[whaledriver]

link:


http://www.ntsb.gov/Events/2006/ChicagoIL%...bits/349732.pdf

 

[hp_fa]

OK, my question is why they continued the approach when it appears they had pre-decided that they were going to go to STL or MCI if the braking action was poor. Were they too much into tunnel vision with the landing checklist and shooting the approach to realize that "poor" was being reported for half the runway?

 

[magsau]

Some of the verbiage that takes place in the sterile enviroment is surprising. On an approach in conditions that existed, I would think joking would be the last thing these guys were doing. One link I see is that in the Pinnacly RJ crash from FL410, and the American Connection J32 crash is that in all three cockpits the pilots were not following FAR's on cockpit behavior and conversation.

 

[KCFlyer]

Some of the verbiage that takes place in the sterile enviroment is surprising. On an approach in conditions that existed, I would think joking would be the last thing these guys were doing. One link I see is that in the Pinnacly RJ crash from FL410, and the American Connection J32 crash is that in all three cockpits the pilots were not following FAR's on cockpit behavior and conversation.

I wonder if we were ever to get a hold of one of YOUR CVR tapes if we'd ever hear something like "UAL xxx descend and maintain 5,000...Southwest xxx cleared for the approach" and then here CAM1 say "goddam Southwest cowboys". Nah...it'd never happen, you're far too professional to let your hatred of Southwest interfere with your sterile cockpit.

 

[magsau]

KC,

How does what you just wrote apply to the topic at hand other than being a personal attack? One thing that is true I have been flying long enough to know that what ever is said is going to come back and haunt you. At UAL we use FL180 as our transition to the sterile cockpit versus the FAR's 10K rule. I do not hear very much chatter from the other guys below this altitude that is not related directly to the flight. The airports are busy enough without comments we find in some of the various NTSB reports.

Flying while probably not the most difficult profession does require a respect for what you are doing and the liabilities that could occur due to a lax standard of preparadness or procedure. When a pilot or crew takes this responsibility lightly or disregards these requirements the safety chain is weakened and the dominos start to line up for an accident to occur.

 

[Flying Titan]

Of course hindsight is 20/20, but didn't they notice that the aircraft that reported "poor" braking conditions for the latter part of the runway were much lighter than a 737 - a Citation and a Gulfstream. If it was hard to stop smaller planes, why didn't it occur to these guys that a 737 would be even more difficult to stop in these conditions.

Also, there were no communications with other airlines listed in the transcript, just the private planes and another SWA flight. Just a coincidence?...or had other carriers already made a decision to divert due to the weather conditions?

 

[Skymess]

Of course hindsight is 20/20, but didn't they notice that the aircraft that reported "poor" braking conditions for the latter part of the runway were much lighter than a 737 - a Citation and a Gulfstream. If it was hard to stop smaller planes, why didn't it occur to these guys that a 737 would be even more difficult to stop in these conditions.

Also, there were no communications with other airlines listed in the transcript, just the private planes and another SWA flight. Just a coincidence?...or had other carriers already made a decision to divert due to the weather conditions?

Hindsight is 20/20. Just hope something similar never happens to you. And remember that nobody on the airplane was injured and these guys have to live with the kids death the rest of their lives.

 

[Garfield1966]

I thought I read an article on the tape and it mentioned something about the fact that early on the reports were poor but later they heard other pilots say it was fair to poor. The SWA crew said that they based their decision to land based on 'fair' and the result was the accident.

A rep from SWA said the procedures were now changed instructing the crew to base their calculation on the worst condition reported and not the best.

Concidering that SWA has a pretty good accident record, I see nothing wrong with having light hearted banter to release some of the stress and tension. Then again I am not a pilot so what do I know.

 

[whaledriver]

KC,

How does what you just wrote apply to the topic at hand other than being a personal attack? One thing that is true I have been flying long enough to know that what ever is said is going to come back and haunt you. At UAL we use FL180 as our transition to the sterile cockpit versus the FAR's 10K rule. I do not hear very much chatter from the other guys below this altitude that is not related directly to the flight. The airports are busy enough without comments we find in some of the various NTSB reports.

Flying while probably not the most difficult profession does require a respect for what you are doing and the liabilities that could occur due to a lax standard of preparadness or procedure. When a pilot or crew takes this responsibility lightly or disregards these requirements the safety chain is weakened and the dominos start to line up for an accident to occur.

MAGSAU - Very well stated...


It just shows that SWA needs a little work on S.O.P.

Acting like dorks and making dumb a$$ jokes during a

critical phase of flight is NOT professional for ANY

airline. I've been on many jump seats (UAL, DAL, CAL, NWA,

even FEDEX & UPS) ALL apply strict sterile flight deck

procedures every time. However, Every pilot knows that

when the chips are down, it's time to cut out the bs.

 

[KCFlyer]

MAGSAU - Very well stated...
It just shows that SWA needs a little work on S.O.P.

Acting like dorks and making dumb a$$ jokes during a

critical phase of flight is NOT professional for ANY

airline. I've been on many jump seats (UAL, DAL, CAL, NWA,

even FEDEX & UPS) ALL apply strict sterile flight deck

procedures every time. However, Every pilot knows that

when the chips are down, it's time to cut out the bs.

And I'll say this...post this all you want if either of you can GUARANTEE that your cockpit is completely sterile...100% of the time. I was warned after mags apparently whined to the moderators about my "personal attack", but I maintain that ANYONE who displays the amount of outright HATRED of Southwest and it's pilots most likely uttered a less than flattering comment about them at some point below 10,000 feet. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone fellas.

 

[mga707]

And I'll say this...post this all you want if either of you can GUARANTEE that your cockpit is completely sterile...100% of the time. I was warned after mags apparently whined to the moderators about my "personal attack", but I maintain that ANYONE who displays the amount of outright HATRED of Southwest and it's pilots most likely uttered a less than flattering comment about them at some point below 10,000 feet. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone fellas.

AMEN!!
If ANYONE should ever be "banned" from these boards (like anyone cares!) it should be this cretin magsau, along with his fellow UAL toady, Busdriver!
THEY ARE THE PROBLEM!

 

[BoeingBoy]

I seem to remember a certain United Captain making a light-hearted comment or two before his DC-10 touched down in Sioux City, IA. If that wasn't a time when the chips were down, I don't know what is.

I guess some would say he needed "a little work on SOP", but most would undoubtedly say he (and his crew) did a superlative job in a nightmarish situation.

Jim

 

[whaledriver]

And I'll say this...post this all you want if either of you can GUARANTEE that your cockpit is completely sterile...100% of the time. I was warned after mags apparently whined to the moderators about my "personal attack", but I maintain that ANYONE who displays the amount of outright HATRED of Southwest and it's pilots most likely uttered a less than flattering comment about them at some point below 10,000 feet. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone fellas.

Relax my friend...no need to get this upset. You're right, I am sure it's never 100% all of the time. However, I simply stated that WHEN the wx is down or with not so perfect conditions, MOST professionals observe the 'sterile cockpit' rule at or below 18,000. I understand that if it was clear and 100 miles in LAS it would not have been an issue...let the bs flow then, not at crunch time in the wx @ MDW.

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

I seem to remember a certain United Captain making a light-hearted comment or two before his DC-10 touched down in Sioux City, IA. If that wasn't a time when the chips were down, I don't know what is.

I guess some would say he needed "a little work on SOP", but most would undoubtedly say he (and his crew) did a superlative job in a nightmarish situation.

Jim

Yes, but his "light-hearted" comment was to the air traffic controller.

The comment was something to this effect (nowhere near exact words though):

ATC: "Land on XXX runway"

Captain: "You want a runway?"

 

[KCFlyer]

Yes, but his "light-hearted" comment was to the air traffic controller.

The comment was something to this effect (nowhere near exact words though):

ATC: "Land on XXX runway"

Captain: "You want a runway?"

Reread the transcript. There were moments of some levity in that cockpit as well...Comments like "looks like we'll miss that ballgame tonight". Not knocking those guys. I met Bill Records (the FO on that flight). Super nice, and oddly enough, a very humble man.