The Debate In Tulsa!

[Checking it Out]

amfa was in town on Friday.

The TWU members attended the meetings to dispel any lies, threats and Intimidations amfa is famous for! I understand it was a complete surprise and immediately their cell phones lit up to call in reinforcements. It was kind of comical, from what I’m hearing.
I understand the noon meeting was very interesting. Amfa lost control and Seham was so frustrated, He was visibly shaking and started personally attacking Individuals and eventually left. I hear Cunningham from AFW was also present and got carried away. This is Interesting since he holds his alliance with amfa and is running for office with the TWU Local! Sounds like another Bob Owens clone! Kind of sick. Don Rodgers I hear did not have a clue how to control the Meeting and Dave Stewart had to take over. When a Question was asked, amfa asked for documentation. After a while they quit asking. The TWU presented the facts with documentation and amfa could not produce any physical evidence to the contrary. I also understand amfa skirted the Questions and kept going on and on about things that had no merit. Seham is long winded and does not say much!
I understand during the later meeting amfa members apologized for their conduct.
Seham started the meeting saying amfa negotiated the NW contract from the ground up! And later when facts were produced on the Farm out of 300,000,000 million worth of concessions he started saying the IAM did it! not amfa. Which is the correct story! Amfa is the one who signed the Contract. I also understand when amfa was confronted about the RO of the Heavy Maintenance at NW, Alaska and United they could not address the issue except squirm. Bottom line, amfa is allowing, or the cause of, the Heavy Maintenance being farmed out at these Airlines. There were less than 100 members present through out the day with no new card signers! They did sell some shirts. I was informed that most were concerned about the 50/50 money raffle at the end!

TWU SOLIDARITY!

 

[RV4]

After attending the Tulsa AMFA Informational Meeting on Friday, and allowing the TWU Local Officers plenty of time to ask their questions and/or attack AMFA.

It became quite clear what the difference is between AMFA/Craft Union advocates versus TWU/Industrial Union advocates.

And this difference is pretty easy to point out:

TWU Advocates - Ignore the failures of your own organizational structure, deflect attention from those failures and focus the membership on other matters using fear based rhetoric, rely on the politicians as the primary goal for change. They honestly admit there are problems with the advancement of the Aircraft Maintenance Profession, but offer zero solutions beyond the belief that funding politicians is the answer. Beyond funding politics, they offer many slogans that attempt to sway opinions. Structure of Union Constitution leaves the leader empowered over the member. Fights to prevent an election from taking place that would allow the mechanics to decide if we should stay with the TWU or change to AMFA.

AMFA Advocates - Recognizes the failed philosophy of industrial unionism and in particular the TWU. Believes that the solution is an industry wide movement for all mechanics to become represented by a craft union under one umbrella. Understands the failures resulting from reliance politics as our basis of strength. Instead, offers a solution of membership empowerment that once given the union back, mechanics of the industry will make gains through of the power of pride, courage, and strength of our skill. Structure of the AMFA Constitution empowers the member. Fights to have an election to allow the mechanics to decide which of these two philosophies will guide our future.

This information represents the difference between the groups of advocates currently entrenched in the debate over our futures.

This thread was started under the claim of "what you can expect if you sign a card".

The simple fact is, signing of the card will allow the mechanic and related group at American Airlines to have an ELECTION to determine union representation. You will each receive ballot instructions to either cast of vote of confidence in favor of the TWU, or vote for a change to AMFA and join the other mechanics in the industry.

The authroization of an election, and the subsequent balloting to determine the wish of the majority on any issue is at the heart of what makes the United States of America the greatest nation on the planet.

Why does the TWU fear an election? Why use fear based rhetoric to attempt to sway the American Worker against the use of a fair and honest election to determine their future?

It appears the TWU is developing a track record of anti-American sentiment.

The TWU used dues money for years to PREVENT the citizens in the state a VOTE on the right-to-work for less issue in Oklahoma. Once the vote did occur, the TWU is now using dues money to overturn the will of the people and reverse the outcome of that election. "PREVENT THE PEOPLE FROM VOTING"

The TWU admitted that the vote on the current Industry Leading Concession was flawed and could not be considered credible. With a stroke of a pen, the TWU and James C. Little removed your right to a credible vote by signing an agreement "without further ratification". "PREVENT THE PEOPLE FROM VOTING"

The TWU is now using fear based rhetoric in attempt to discourage a vote by the membership to decide what Union Constitution we would rather have to advance our profession and our future. "PREVENT THE PEOPLE FROM VOTING"

Again, the balloting system that allows for choice is fundamental to freedom and empowerment of the people. Everyone should be concerned when the advocates and supporters of an organization are developing a clear track record that is designed the prevent elections from taking place and when they do take place attempting to overturn the will of the voters.

AMFA supporters are asking to you to advance the freedom of America by signing the election authorization card. If you wish to cast of vote of confidence for the TWU and maintain your current representation, I disagree with that choice, but respect your right to your opinion and vote. The last union representation vote for the mechanic on AA property happened in 1947, the time has come to re-confirm or replace the TWU.

SIGN YOUR CARD - ADVANCE AMERICAN FREEDOM - EXERCISE YOUR RIGHT TO VOTE

 

[j7915]

The TWU is now using fear based rhetoric in attempt to discourage a vote by the membership to decide what Union Constitution we would rather have to advance our profession and our future. "PREVENT THE PEOPLE FROM VOTING"

Whose profession? The welder''s? Aren''t you afraid that more of your welding work will go to singapore, NWA has send too much there already.

There are many things to fear, being afraid to loose a paycheck may not rank with cancer, accidents etc, for others it does. So please stop the BS already.

I thought that rhetoric was one of the means to a democratic discussion?

I stand by my belief that signing AMFA certification cards, is giving a monkey with a machine gun ammunition, you never know where he will aim.

 

[RV4]

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On 5/31/2003 9:12:41 AM Checking it Out wrote:



amfa was in town on Friday.

The TWU members attended the meetings to dispel any lies, threats and Intimidations amfa is famous for! I understand it was a complete surprise and immediately their cell phones lit up to call in reinforcements. It was kind of comical, from what I’m hearing.
I understand the noon meeting was very interesting. Amfa lost control and Seham was so frustrated, He was visibly shaking and started personally attacking Individuals and eventually left. I hear Cunningham from AFW was also present and got carried away. This is Interesting since he holds his alliance with amfa and is running for office with the TWU Local! Sounds like another Bob Owens clone! Kind of sick. Don Rodgers I hear did not have a clue how to control the Meeting and Dave Stewart had to take over. When a Question was asked, amfa asked for documentation. After a while they quit asking. The TWU presented the facts with documentation and amfa could not produce any physical evidence to the contrary. I also understand amfa skirted the Questions and kept going on and on about things that had no merit. Seham is long winded and does not say much!
I understand during the later meeting amfa members apologized for their conduct.
Seham started the meeting saying amfa negotiated the NW contract from the ground up! And later when facts were produced on the Farm out of 300,000,000 million worth of concessions he started saying the IAM did it! not amfa. Which is the correct story! Amfa is the one who signed the Contract. I also understand when amfa was confronted about the RO of the Heavy Maintenance at NW, Alaska and United they could not address the issue except squirm. Bottom line, amfa is allowing, or the cause of, the Heavy Maintenance being farmed out at these Airlines. There were less than 100 members present through out the day with no new card signers! They did sell some shirts. I was informed that most were concerned about the 50/50 money raffle at the end!

TWU SOLIDARITY!



----------------​

Watch the website for the number of new cards signed from Tulsa over the next two weeks.

To log the progess on this thread, this is todays starting point from Tulsa:

1046 Signed in Tulsa as of May 31st, 2003

At least we allowed you into the meeting to ask your questions, what happened to the card carrying TWU members at your Local 514 Contract Meeting?

ACCESS DENIED, THAT's WHAT HAPPENED.

It was also interesting when the Uniformed Tulsa Police Officer who is also a Mechanic at Americanin Tulsa informed us that he was removed the TWU Local 514 for wearing a T-shirt with a wrench on it and the letters AMT. Ah yes! The truthful facts about the TWU. Anti-American treatment of those who serve and protect our communities. Will the TWU treat the War in Iraq Veterans the same when they return home?

CIO,

Keep posting your lies, half truths, and rhetoric! You are actually becomiing our lead organizer, with the exception of Jim "Without Further Ratification" Little, you are the number two leader in getting cards signed.

For this we thank you!

 

[Buck]

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On 5/31/2003 1101 AM j7915 wrote:

The TWU is now using fear based rhetoric in attempt to discourage a vote by the membership to decide what Union Constitution we would rather have to advance our profession and our future. "PREVENT THE PEOPLE FROM VOTING"

Whose profession? The welder''s? Aren''t you afraid that more of your welding work will go to singapore, NWA has send too much there already.

There are many things to fear, being afraid to loose a paycheck may not rank with cancer, accidents etc, for others it does. So please stop the BS already.

I thought that rhetoric was one of the means to a democratic discussion?

I stand by my belief that signing AMFA certification cards, is giving a monkey with a machine gun ammunition, you never know where he will aim.

----------------​

How can you defend the organization that "Farms Out In House"?

The SRP/OSM classification has created the lowest average technician compensation in the industy. To top that off you believe that by lowering the wages gained by the AMFA members at Northwest, that you are protecting the TWU membership. You say that Northwest is farming out. UAL has closed two maintenance bases and AA has used it''s "Real Strength" the TWU to acheive the lowest wages and the largest farm out by keeping the SRP/OSM classification in the alive. Then you have the audacity to state that the members who believe that change is needed and that an election is the way to acheive it, are just monkeys. Do you also believe that all non A&P''s are not important as with your welder comment? What about Title 2 mechanics? Is this how you truly feel? Do you love the company so much that you disregard dues paying members of your own union?

 

[RV4]

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On 5/31/2003 1101 AM j7915 wrote:
Whose profession? The welder's? Aren't you afraid that more of your welding work will go to singapore, NWA has send too much there already.

There are many things to fear, being afraid to loose a paycheck may not rank with cancer, accidents etc, for others it does. So please stop the BS already.
----------------​

j7915,

Why should I FEAR welders work going to singapore?

According to the TWU.com website, the TWU has won "RESTRICTIONS" on foreign maintenance. See Screen Capture for TWU International Website:

Screen Capture from TWU.com
[url="http://www.twu.com/Political/Polit.Hot.html#mechanics"]http://www.twu.com/Political/Polit.Hot.html#mechanics[/URL]





The TWU reports a "BIG WIN FOR AIRCRAFT MECHANICS"

So j7915, since the TWU, the Democrats "persuaded" the Evil Republican and WE NOW HAVE WON RESTRICTIONS.

WHY SHOULD I BE AFRAID?

In fact, why don't you come by my work area on Monday, I will show you the serviceable parts tags on every overhauled CF6-80c2A5 Combustor Module outsourced to SINGAPORE. You can then take this information, and with this BIG WIN FOR AIRCRAFT MECHANICS file a grievance or a lawsuit to stop the welders work at American Airlines from going to Singapore.

 

[James T. Kirk]

amfa dave''s posting was,
ACCESS DENIED, THAT''s WHAT HAPPENED.

It was also interesting when the Uniformed Tulsa Police Officer who is also a Mechanic at Americanin Tulsa informed us that he was removed the TWU Local 514 for wearing a T-shirt with a wrench on it and the letters AMT. Ah yes! The truthful facts about the TWU. Anti-American treatment of those who serve and protect our communities. Will the TWU treat the War in Iraq Veterans the same when they return home?

Yes, amfa dave they will be removed every time they come into the union hall with an amt shirt on.

And no amfa dave, the Veterans will not be turned away from union hall, in fact the veterans committee has been sending box''s of supplies to our fighting men and women in Iraq for over two months now, and amfa dave it is very low to try to bring disgrace our veterans in trying to pump your self up. That is very ANTI-AMERICAN. Cheep shots like that are real good example of your extremely poor character.

Oh, yes dave one of the people that attended the meetings told me that you admitted in one of the meetings of your UNION BUSTING activity’s, when you testified for the PAYCHECK PROTECTION HEARINGS. I believe it was backed by the RIGHT TO WORK FOUNDATION which are big backers of any UNION BUSTER such as you self dave.

 

[RV4]

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On 5/31/2003 146 PM James T. Kirk wrote:

Will the TWU treat the War in Iraq Veterans the same when they return home?

Yes, amfa dave they will be removed every time they come into the union hall with an amt shirt on.

And no amfa dave, the Veterans will not be turned away from union hall, in fact the veterans committee has been sending box's of supplies to our fighting men and women in Iraq for over two months now, and amfa dave it is very low to try to bring disgrace our veterans in trying to pump your self up. That is very ANTI-AMERICAN. Cheep shots like that are real good example of your extremely poor character.

Oh, yes dave one of the people that attended the meetings told me that you admitted in one of the meetings of your UNION BUSTING activity’s, when you testified for the PAYCHECK PROTECTION HEARINGS. I believe it was backed by the RIGHT TO WORK FOUNDATION which are big backers of any UNION BUSTER such as you self dave.
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Isn't interesting how the Right-to-Work Foundation and myself are considered UNION BUSTER when they attempt to gain poltical freedom for the working man? A restriction on the confiscation of union dues for political purposes, of which many members take issue with is UNION BUSTING in your mind?

Nothing gets more ANTI-AMERICAN than compelling a man to contribute to politics under threat of termination of loss of membership rights.

James T.,
Take a look at the bill for yourself

SUMMARY AS OF:
1/21/1997--Introduced.

Paycheck Protection Act - Amends the Federal Election Campaign Act to make it unlawful, except with the separate, prior, written, voluntary authorization of each individual, for: (1) national banks or corporations to collect or assess its stockholders or employees any dues, initiation fee, or other payment as a condition of employment if any part of such dues, fee, or payment will be used for political activities in which the national bank or corporation is engaged; and (2) labor organizations to collect from or assess its members or nonmembers any dues, fee, or other payment if any part of such dues, fee, or payment will be used for political activities.
States that an authorization shall remain in effect until revoked and may be revoked at any time.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the `Paycheck Protection Act'.
SEC. 2. WORKERS' POLITICAL RIGHTS.
Section 316 of the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 (2 U.S.C. 441b) is amended by adding the following new subsection:
`©(1) Except with the separate, prior, written, voluntary authorization of each individual, it shall be unlawful--
(A) for any national bank or corporation described in this section to collect from or assess its stockholders or employees any dues, initiation fee, or other payment as a condition of employment if any part of such dues, fee, or payment will be used for political activities in which the national bank or corporation, as the case may be, is engaged; and
(B) for any labor organization described in this section to collect from or assess its members or nonmembers any dues, initiation fee, or other payment if any part of such dues, fee, or payment will be used for political activities.
`(2) an authorization described in paragraph (1) shall remain in effect until revoked and may be revoked at any time.
`(3) for purposes of this subsection, the term `political activities' includes communications or other activities which involve carrying on propaganda, attempting to influence legislation, or participating or intervening in any political campaign or political party.'

Mr. James T. Kirk
Explain to us all how the "Paycheck Protection Bill" will "BUST THE UNION"?

Don't preach to me about veterans and freedom!

You are the one who supports the industrial union founded and funded by Communist!

You best sweep your own front porch of Anti-American sentiments before you attempt to preach about it to others!

 

[j7915]

RV4, you sound like a True Believer. What other firm convictions do you have? Creationism, UFOs, Flat Earth, the Metric system is a communist plot?

Start reading between the lines, RTW is a union busting program, it has nothing to do with your precious political freedom for workers. The GOP platform of Oklahoma wants to take unions out of the political arena, and allow them only to negotiate contracts, that would also apply to your precious AMFA. The GOP does read between the lines and to them a group of workers uniting for a common purpose will be considered a union, call yourself what you will.

I regret that there seems to be an AFL-CIO goon who looks over your shoulder when you vote, but that is your paranoia, and you are entitled to it.

 

[Buck]

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On 5/31/2003 5:22:42 PM j7915 wrote:

RV4, you sound like a True Believer. What other firm convictions do you have? Creationism, UFOs, Flat Earth, the Metric system is a communist plot?

Start reading between the lines, RTW is a union busting program, it has nothing to do with your precious political freedom for workers. The GOP platform of Oklahoma wants to take unions out of the political arena, and allow them only to negotiate contracts, that would also apply to your precious AMFA. The GOP does read between the lines and to them a group of workers uniting for a common purpose will be considered a union, call yourself what you will.

I regret that there seems to be an AFL-CIO goon who looks over your shoulder when you vote, but that is your paranoia, and you are entitled to it.

----------------​

1) You would be an expert.

2) Is that why Randy McDonald advocated the lowest wages in the industry?

3) AFL-CIO goon? You pay them dues why would want to bash them?

 

[RV4]

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On 5/31/2003 5:22:42 PM j7915 wrote:

Start reading between the lines, RTW is a union busting program, it has nothing to do with your precious political freedom for workers. The GOP platform of Oklahoma wants to take unions out of the political arena, and allow them only to negotiate contracts, that would also apply to your precious AMFA. The GOP does read between the lines and to them a group of workers uniting for a common purpose will be considered a union, call yourself what you will.
----------------​

And so if we locate a pervert, a murderer, and a drug addict, that has the same views you have on a political issue, does that then make you a pervert, murderer, and drug addict also?

BTW, did you read the damn BILL? Or are you so narrow and closed minded that you decide what your opinion of issues are based on what others think of them? Do you stick your finger in the air, feel for the wind and run that direction also?

Oh , I forgot, you decide your opinion on issues by eating popcorn and hearing what you believe from those on Pine Street and the other worshipers of the Shrine of the Bus!

BTW, last I checked, if every member of a union in a right-to-work state CHOOSES to pay dues. How does that legislation BUST THE UNION? You see it really is about freedom, isn't it? Because the legislation doesn't OUTLAW dues collection, it makes dues collection non-compulsory. Where did you go to school and get that edumucation of yours j7915? In your mind, has every union in a right-to-work state been "BUSTED" since passage of that law? If not, WHY?

com•pul•so•ry

Pronunciation: (kum-pul'su-rE), [key]
—adj., n., pl. -ries.

—adj.
1. required; mandatory; obligatory: compulsory education.

Those are words synonomous with CHOICE, and FREEDOM!

Therefore, now repeat after me:

Non-Compulsory would be????

Not required, Not mandatory,

It does NOT say illegal.

 

[j7915]

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On 5/31/2003 1:05:27 PM Buck wrote:

----------------

On 5/31/2003 1101 AM j7915 wrote:


The TWU is now using fear based rhetoric in attempt to discourage a vote by the membership to decide what Union Constitution we would rather have to advance our profession and our future. "PREVENT THE PEOPLE FROM VOTING"


Whose profession? The welder''s? Aren''t you afraid that more of your welding work will go to singapore, NWA has send too much there already.


There are many things to fear, being afraid to loose a paycheck may not rank with cancer, accidents etc, for others it does. So please stop the BS already.


I thought that rhetoric was one of the means to a democratic discussion?


I stand by my belief that signing AMFA certification cards, is giving a monkey with a machine gun ammunition, you never know where he will aim.


----------------​

How can you defend the organization that "Farms Out In House"?


The SRP/OSM classification has created the lowest average technician compensation in the industy. To top that off you believe that by lowering the wages gained by the AMFA members at Northwest, that you are protecting the TWU membership. You say that Northwest is farming out. UAL has closed two maintenance bases and AA has used it''s "Real Strength" the TWU to acheive the lowest wages and the largest farm out by keeping the SRP/OSM classification in the alive. Then you have the audacity to state that the members who believe that change is needed and that an election is the way to acheive it, are just monkeys. Do you also believe that all non A&P''s are not important as with your welder comment? What about Title 2 mechanics? Is this how you truly feel? Do you love the company so much that you disregard dues paying members of your own union?

----------------​

Must have hit a very sensitive nerve if all you can come back with is "Farms Out In House"? So maybe airplane should never be taxied by mechanics as that function is already reserved for pilots only, when there are paxs aboard, it is OK for a mechanic to do taxi/run-up with just a few fellow mechs aboard? We don''t count?????

As to the welder, if the shoe fits wear it. I get suspicious when an outsider professes such concern for me. Like the administrator of AMFA. What is his expertease in aviation?

 

[RUM@AA]

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On 5/31/2003 1101 AM j7915 wrote:

I stand by my belief that signing AMFA certification cards, is giving a monkey with a machine gun ammunition, you never know where he will aim.

----------------​

Who is the monkey? The membership????? Oh yes, by all means we cannot have the membership deciding who their union should be. Noooo we need the likes of you and Jim Little to decide what's best for us, Comrad j7915. We bow at your altar. We kiss your feet and pray that you will allow us a crumb or two.
DELETED

 

[Buck]

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On 5/31/2003 10:01:29 PM j7915 wrote:

----------------
On 5/31/2003 1:05:27 PM Buck wrote:

----------------

On 5/31/2003 1101 AM j7915 wrote:

Must have hit a very sensitive nerve if all you can come back with is "Farms Out In House"? So maybe airplane should never be taxied by mechanics as that function is already reserved for pilots only, when there are paxs aboard, it is OK for a mechanic to do taxi/run-up with just a few fellow mechs aboard? We don''t count?????

As to the welder, if the shoe fits wear it. I get suspicious when an outsider professes such concern for me. Like the administrator of AMFA. What is his expertease in aviation?


----------------​

The SRP/OSM program of Farming Out mechanic and related work within AA''s own facility is the same as farming it outside of that facility. If that work was to be accomplished at a lower cost outside of the facility AA would do so. Taxiing of aircraft has nothing to do farming out work. To taxi an aircraft with mechanics on board is part of their job. With passengers on board it becomes the pilots work. But the APA is not part of your beloved AFL-CIO so they must be monkeys also, just like you indicated the those card signers are. The APA formed it''s own union. YOu must not be a TWU man because if you hate welders and facility maintenance, you must hate stock clerks and fleet service also. You must be a company man.

 

[Buck]

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On 6/1/2003 12:02:51 AM RUM@AA wrote:

----------------
On 5/31/2003 1101 AM j7915 wrote:

I stand by my belief that signing AMFA certification cards, is giving a monkey with a machine gun ammunition, you never know where he will aim.

----------------​

Who is the monkey? The membership????? Oh yes, by all means we cannot have the membership deciding who their union should be. Noooo we need the likes of you and Jim Little to decide what's best for us, Comrad j7915.


----------------​

You would be wasting your time praying for these communists, the are mostly atheists. The PARTY does not allow for religion.