Tulsa To The Rescue..... BUT WHY?

[FLYNFISH]

Hey pal, the ee-i-ee-i and peanut thing was out of line. I apologize.

Your post gave the impression that your a FSC. To whine about working conditions to a mechanic is a little misguided and you won't get much sympathy from us. I'll say it again, ramp should be a stepping stone to pursue a better quality of life after. Talk about misguided, a FSC that boasts 1960 something seniority really should set his bar a little higher. Just an opinion.

Unsure why you want to put words in my mouth, never said we should take $$ from you. But I gotta tell ya, my Mom was a saint and she always told me I was special. Don't have any reason to doubt her.

I would agree with you if it were not for one SMALL problem. There is No upward movement anymore. The days when you hired on and used the entry level positions to step up are over. Would you agree to one senority date? Just use hire date only and then you could advance into any area without a negative loss of senority. If there is one thing we all should have learned is it did not matter what title group you are in. We all will lose bigtime! Title 1 proved to be no more valuable than title 2,3,or 4. As far as the comment about Mechanic representing Mechanics. Well yeah sounds good. But Tulsa is a different animal. They carry the vote and they could not find 1 mechanic out of 6000 title 1 people to vote in. A fleet service guy wins the vote with 85 fsc in TULE. SIMPLY AMAZING! I still scratch my head on that one. Why did he win? Because the majority voted the best man in! So lay your blame somewhere else. Just an opinion.

 

[JABORD]

I would agree with you if it were not for one SMALL problem. There is No upward movement anymore. The days when you hired on and used the entry level positions to step up are over. Would you agree to one senority date? Just use hire date only and then you could advance into any area without a negative loss of senority. If there is one thing we all should have learned is it did not matter what title group you are in. We all will lose bigtime! Title 1 proved to be no more valuable than title 2,3,or 4. As far as the comment about Mechanic representing Mechanics. Well yeah sounds good. But Tulsa is a different animal. They carry the vote and they could not find 1 mechanic out of 6000 title 1 people to vote in. A fleet service guy wins the vote with 85 fsc in TULE. SIMPLY AMAZING! I still scratch my head on that one. Why did he win? Because the majority voted the best man in! So lay your blame somewhere else. Just an opinion.

My encouragement for setting bars higher in pursuit of a better quality of life is not isolated towards just working at AA. So yes, AA's neglect to have a system which utilizes the skills of an individual to 'climb the ladder ' so to say adds to the incompetence of those big dogs running the company.
The 'one seniority ' theory is purely a fleet service born idea that would probably have saved me from layoff from M&E in 1994. Yet, not too supportive of that one. For the short time when I was on the ramp with my A&P textbooks in tow, I tried to encourage every guy I met to give some thought toward going into Maintenance. Many of those guys procrastinated until the company finally enticed them with tuition reimbursement which turned into a debacle of its own. Should they be awarded with one seniority? I think not.
Unsure what blame you speak of but about that "best man voted in " thing, I would be curious as to the percentage of 514 folks that actually participated in the vote? I would believe that in the heart of TWBoo country, there lies the biggest group of disengaged members anywhere. I'm just say'in.

 

[lineguy43]

Thats whats known as leverage. They can not legally outsource the work, limited supply even though the barriers to entry are lower than an A&P, and as a group they have more balls than we do, thats how they got to $45'hr. They opened negotiations back in 2006, why did we wait till 2008?

Again Bob they get the money they do not so much that their work can't be outsourced so much is that they collectively are a small group and most airlines do not have a problem throwing them some money. Also to do there job in a 121 air operation you have to have the ticket. If everyone would have to have an A@P to touch an airplane I believe our craft would be a whole lot different. I have a dispatch license but at this point with no dispatch experience I would have to start at the bottom of that group and work my way up. I will tell you what though my company most certainly treats them better than MX...They get the top computers and equipment to do their job. We much like all the other companies I have worked for MX is the sh*t on the bottom of the corporate boardroom shoes. We do not generate revenue...We cost them money. They do not stop to think if their a/c do not move they do not make money but they never seem to think on that level. Mechanics have always been their own worst enemy we do not act professional or look professional and consequently we are not respected as professionals. Money and bennies have gotten better for me since my departure from industrial unions who love to lump us together. But to someone elses point..I do not want us as a group to benefit at another's demise. I have never advocated and have even come down on fellow mechanics who thought they were better than ramp and cleaners. I started on the ramp to get my foot in the door. My problem was and is that the iam at the time never addressed our concerns as mechanics and they tied our pay pretty damn close to ramp..Sorry if this offends but I jumped through the hoops to get the A@P and experience and I expect to be compensated for it. If I thought that in my working life I was going to make 2 dollars an hr more than working on the ramp I would never have bothered to make the effort to get my A@P. That and the "my drivers license is the same as your A@P" and "a loaf of bread costs the same for everyone" is the reason we threw the iam to the street. Pisses me off that the pilots and F/A's and dispatchers can have a union that represents their interests and no other classifications are members in it.. But we as mechanics are forced to take others and looked at as "elitists" because we want a union dedicated to representing our needs. Well I am too old to start over and am in a pretty good spot making over 100k ( yeah that A@P is finally paying off). Oh and NO Bob I would not take a 10 to 14 dollar an hr cut to bring work inhouse.

 

[700UW]

Even though ramp might have been in the same union, they had nothing to do with maintenance and their CBA.

Thats what most people dont realize.

Look at EAL, Ramp, and Maintenance in the IAM and they shut it down, how did that work out with AMFA being all on its own at NW?

 

[tech2101]

Again Bob they get the money they do not so much that their work can't be outsourced so much is that they collectively are a small group and most airlines do not have a problem throwing them some money. Also to do there job in a 121 air operation you have to have the ticket. If everyone would have to have an A@P to touch an airplane I believe our craft would be a whole lot different. I have a dispatch license but at this point with no dispatch experience I would have to start at the bottom of that group and work my way up. I will tell you what though my company most certainly treats them better than MX...They get the top computers and equipment to do their job. We much like all the other companies I have worked for MX is the sh*t on the bottom of the corporate boardroom shoes. We do not generate revenue...We cost them money. They do not stop to think if their a/c do not move they do not make money but they never seem to think on that level. Mechanics have always been their own worst enemy we do not act professional or look professional and consequently we are not respected as professionals. Money and bennies have gotten better for me since my departure from industrial unions who love to lump us together. But to someone elses point..I do not want us as a group to benefit at another's demise. I have never advocated and have even come down on fellow mechanics who thought they were better than ramp and cleaners. I started on the ramp to get my foot in the door. My problem was and is that the iam at the time never addressed our concerns as mechanics and they tied our pay pretty damn close to ramp..Sorry if this offends but I jumped through the hoops to get the A@P and experience and I expect to be compensated for it. If I thought that in my working life I was going to make 2 dollars an hr more than working on the ramp I would never have bothered to make the effort to get my A@P. That and the "my drivers license is the same as your A@P" and "a loaf of bread costs the same for everyone" is the reason we threw the iam to the street. Pisses me off that the pilots and F/A's and dispatchers can have a union that represents their interests and no other classifications are members in it.. But we as mechanics are forced to take others and looked at as "elitists" because we want a union dedicated to representing our needs. Well I am too old to start over and am in a pretty good spot making over 100k ( yeah that A@P is finally paying off). Oh and NO Bob I would not take a 10 to 14 dollar an hr cut to bring work inhouse.

That composite (honeycomb) shop experience was priceless. Who says a ramp guy cant make a DC-9 control tab!

 

[tech2101]

Even though ramp might have been in the same union, they had nothing to do with maintenance and their CBA.

Thats what most people dont realize.

Look at EAL, Ramp, and Maintenance in the IAM and they shut it down, how did that work out with AMFA being all on its own at NW?

It worked fine until your scab union crossed our picket line.

An IAM apologist in full glory.

You and Josh should do stand up together. You have more in common than you realize.

 

[strikeforce]

What's it like being one of the , apparently, few intelligent people on the face of the earth? <_< You define narcissism.

nar·cis·sism   [nahr-suh-siz-em] noun
1. Inordinate fascination with oneself; excessive self-love; vanity.
2. Psychoanalysis . erotic gratification derived from admiration of one's own physical or mental attributes, being a normal condition at the infantile level of personality development.

never said I was most intelligent person on the face of the earth. You said that, and I thank you!

 

[strikeforce]

I agree. The FSC job should be compared to a Longshormans. They use their backs and equipment to load Sea faring Ships you use yours to load Air ships. The work is hard, dangerous, unrecognized and you guys are underpaid in comparasion. The question here at the moment is we are in BK, where do you stand within the Industry and what are you prepared to do to fight what the company is trying to do in BK? Should you lower wages to keep jobs that competitors outsourced? Which in turn would drive competitors to seek more concessions from their FSCs and the downward cycle continues. Or, should the TWU allow the outsourcing then try and organize the shops that pick up the work?

The odds are that if the company asks for abrogation they will get it, trying to keep the jobs in house that others outsource is a slam dunk for abrogation. look at one of the pivotal BK cases where the printer sought to abrogate a contract that required that he keep typsetters on the job. Any deal that requires a company to keep workers that competitors dont have to keep will be abrogated. If the wages and everything else are industry standard then the arguement becomes "if you have everything your competitors have then the reason you cant compete lies with how you manage it".

You are absolutely correct that mechanics should not tear down other workers and say they should make less. Its diminishes us all. They negotiated what they got, we negotiated what we got.

and, this is where WE disagree, Bob. You, along with 20 something local presidents negotiated the POS T/A's the mechanics voted on in 2010. Stop signing confidentiality agreements and provide the membership with REAL information. We can careless how many fax machines, cell phones, or printers you guys have access to. I want to hear about the proposals being passed across the tables.....something the TWU has failed to explain to the membership....and why is that??? Could it be that some are making side deals.....horse trading.....taking from one to save the others????? In 2003, our own union negotiator proposed to get 1/2 pay for sick time in order to save 1300 Title II jobs. Therefore, it's true...amt's took a hit to save Title II. That wasn't the company that screwed me, it was my fellow Title II negotiator that proposed it, and I assume a Title I that seconded it. Real nice!
So, it's not the INTL guys proposing the outcome of our T/A's......it's guys like you, Gilboy, Luis, Woodward, JR, Pike, and others that make ridiculous proposals that got us 1/2 pay for sick time, and 1.5x for holidays, 1.5x for ot, and less vacation. The union negotiators accepted to place the amt's at the bottom of the industry before WE even have a chance to vote. That's the problem! Do your damn job at the table, and maybe the AMT's at AA wouldn't be at the bottom of the industry.

 

[Bob Owens]

and, this is where WE disagree, Bob. You, along with 20 something local presidents negotiated the POS T/A's the mechanics voted on in 2010. Stop signing confidentiality agreements and provide the membership with REAL information. We can careless how many fax machines, cell phones, or printers you guys have access to. I want to hear about the proposals being passed across the tables.....something the TWU has failed to explain to the membership....and why is that??? Could it be that some are making side deals.....horse trading.....taking from one to save the others????? In 2003, our own union negotiator proposed to get 1/2 pay for sick time in order to save 1300 Title II jobs. Therefore, it's true...amt's took a hit to save Title II. That wasn't the company that screwed me, it was my fellow Title II negotiator that proposed it, and I assume a Title I that seconded it. Real nice!
So, it's not the INTL guys proposing the outcome of our T/A's......it's guys like you, Gilboy, Luis, Woodward, JR, Pike, and others that make ridiculous proposals that got us 1/2 pay for sick time, and 1.5x for holidays, 1.5x for ot, and less vacation. The union negotiators accepted to place the amt's at the bottom of the industry before WE even have a chance to vote.

Hmm, on the one hand we have Overspeed saying that I'm responsible for the NO vote then we have you saying I'm to blame for bringing the thing back. You two are more alike than you realize.

That's the problem! Do your damn job at the table, and maybe the AMT's at AA wouldn't be at the bottom of the industry.

Get your peers in ORD to vote No or at least turn down some OT and maybe I could, Oh yea, thats right, you walked away from actually doing something.

 

[Overspeed]

Hmm, on the one hand we have Overspeed saying that I'm responsible for the NO vote then we have you saying I'm to blame for bringing the thing back.




Get your peers in ORD to vote No or at least turn down some OT and maybe I could, Oh yea, thats right, you walked away from actually doing something.

Oh Bob, there you go again. Blaming everyone else but yourself.

I believe he is saying he wants to know what ridiculous proposals are you passing across the table. You know the ones that probably inflated the company's costs by hundreds of millions yet gave nothing back in value to the company.

 

[Bob Owens]

Oh Bob, there you go again. Blaming everyone else but yourself.

I believe he is saying he wants to know what ridiculous proposals are you passing across the table. You know the ones that probably inflated the company's costs by hundreds of millions yet gave nothing back in value to the company.

Such as?

 

[Overspeed]

Such as?

That's the point, he wants to know. Tell him.

 

[DNTULSA]

That's the point, he wants to know. Tell him.

Overspeed, you are a delight! You keep blaming Bob for (name anything)
What do you do? are you a mechanic? Do you have a nice little union job where you don't have to work? Perhaps you just clock on UB 7.9 hours a day!

It's people like you that I don't miss at AA.

 

[Vortilon]

I have heard right from one local title 1 president involved in this previous round of negotiations. When he went over to the fleet service group of negotiators to ask them what their strategy was, and what kind of supporting documentation they had etc.. They simply responded "we are just going to (me too) what ever the mechanics get".

Most of us are tired of the secrecy involved, like Strikeforce pointed out earlier. That 2003 contract is a perfect example of the AMT's taking the brunt of the pain - most courtesy of the TWU trading away mechanics pay and benefits to maintain dues payers headcount.

Last time I checked our fleet service clerks were among the highest paid in the industry. Meanwhile the AMT's are at the bottom in pay and benefits. Why is that?

 

[Buck]

I have heard right from one local title 1 president involved in this previous round of negotiations. When he went over to the fleet service group of negotiators to ask them what their strategy was, and what kind of supporting documentation they had etc.. They simply responded "we are just going to (me too) what ever the mechanics get".

Most of us are tired of the secrecy involved, like Strikeforce pointed out earlier. That 2003 contract is a perfect example of the AMT's taking the brunt of the pain - most courtesy of the TWU trading away mechanics pay and benefits to maintain dues payers headcount.

Last time I checked our fleet service clerks were among the highest paid in the industry. Meanwhile the AMT's are at the bottom in pay and benefits. Why is that?

While this is a very valid question, brother you are "out of order"