TWU Chapter 11 - AA 1113 Filing

[TWU informer]

Although I doubt it is possible, it would be nice to confine this topic to discussions related to the soon to be filed 1113 by AMR.

We can all speculate until the "cows come on" and it we can argue with each other about who is going to get screwed the worst.

According to some, we are going to get a "haircut", and to some, we are going to "lose everything", while there are still some who believe they will somehow "escape without damage".

Within the next few weeks, we will begin to see some facts, and that will make the discussion much more accurate, interesting, and above all sad.

Good Luck to everyone in 2012, and may your hair grow back without the help of rogain.

 

[JFK Fleet Service]

Given AA's habit of overreaching, I would expect substantial work rule changes,outsourcing of smaller stations,termination of the pension (There is no point in filing for chapter 11 if they continue to have a pension obligation of any kind hanging over their head.),dramatic increases in healthcare costs for active employees and retirees and at a minimum,a 15% cut in pay.

This is their opportunity to put the hammer onto labor, they will not let it pass.

I expect the worst so when it happens I'm not surprised.

 

[TWU informer]

This is what I predict as some obviuos possibilities:

AA/AE Operations merged into one single carrier AA operation One Pilot Union/One Managmeent Team

Numerous RJ Leases and Up to 90 MD80 Leases rejected
More 737 Purchases Approved during BK period
757 Leases Rejected

APA Pension - PBGC New 401K plan
APFA Pension - Hard Feeze New 401K plan
TWU Pension - Hard Freeze New 401K plan

All Prefunding eliminated - Employee Contribution plus interest refunded
Company keeps their matching funds plus interest

New Payscales - For smaller AA A/C and new APA hires
New Payscales - For TWU and APFA New Hires

Unlimited Outsourcing of Overhaul and Line Maintenance Operations
Some will go right away, and those that fail to compete will be cut later. Up to you save your job.
Unlimited Outsourcing of Title II
Some will go right waway, and those that fail to compete wil be cut later. Up to you to save your job.

7 Day Coverage at Overhaul Bases (Hopefully the Union is smart enough to implement bid/bid for shifts/days-off)

AFW O/H Base Sold and most operations moved to DWH, the rest to TUL
DWH allowed to have unlicensed AMT/OSM's

Early Out Buyout of Higher Senior Employees

Work Rule Changes in all Union Groups
With at least 6 years minimum CBA terms.

And I actually believe a payraise will still come to employees that are left on the property.
Could include new stock ownership also.
New Variable Compensation Plan (Profit Sharing)

 

[2ndGENAMT]

The last decades airline bankruptcies set a lot of precedent and I don't think the creditors, judge or AA want the employees that remain to be angry.. That being said I believe our contracts will be a mirror image of what the other legacy carriers ended up
with..

As far as the pension, the judge could look at the last T/A and determine that AA offered to keep it for current employees and let that be the outcome (Highly Unlikely) but my point is anything is possible..

For sure the company will have much more control over operations through unilateral work rule changes.. The question is will they use them to make M&R viable and keep the majority of maintenance in house while they transition to newer aircraft..

 

[johnny kat]

2ndGENAMT:

The last decades airline bankruptcies set a lot of precedent and I don't think the creditors, judge or AA want the employees that remain to be angry.. That being said I believe our contracts will be a mirror image of what the other legacy carriers ended up with...

TWU informer's post pretty much sums up exactly what the other legacy carriers ended up with.

 

[olderguyAMT]

This is what I predict as some obviuos possibilities:

AA/AE Operations merged into one single carrier AA operation One Pilot Union/One Managmeent Team

Numerous RJ Leases and Up to 90 MD80 Leases rejected
More 737 Purchases Approved during BK period
757 Leases Rejected

APA Pension - PBGC New 401K plan
APFA Pension - Hard Feeze New 401K plan
TWU Pension - Hard Freeze New 401K plan

All Prefunding eliminated - Employee Contribution plus interest refunded
Company keeps their matching funds plus interest

New Payscales - For smaller AA A/C and new APA hires
New Payscales - For TWU and APFA New Hires

Unlimited Outsourcing of Overhaul and Line Maintenance Operations
Some will go right away, and those that fail to compete will be cut later. Up to you save your job.
Unlimited Outsourcing of Title II
Some will go right waway, and those that fail to compete wil be cut later. Up to you to save your job.

7 Day Coverage at Overhaul Bases (Hopefully the Union is smart enough to implement bid/bid for shifts/days-off)

AFW O/H Base Sold and most operations moved to DWH, the rest to TUL
DWH allowed to have unlicensed AMT/OSM's

Early Out Buyout of Higher Senior Employees

Work Rule Changes in all Union Groups
With at least 6 years minimum CBA terms.

And I actually believe a payraise will still come to employees that are left on the property.
Could include new stock ownership also.
New Variable Compensation Plan (Profit Sharing)

You may be presenting the worst case scenario. That is more than a haircut, its like a severely deep sissors cut at the neckline .


With Unlimited Outsourcing of Overhaul and Line Maintenance Operations, why would
DWH get unlicensed AMT/OSM's, if there is nothing for them to do? Support shops with OSM’s do support heavy maintenance. If the Heavies go away, support shops go away too. Check out Sunday’s Tulsa World AA article. Rumors of AA reps at South America MRO. That location probably is in San Salvador and is called Aeroman. link.

http://www.aeroman.com.sv/en-company.jsp?idCat=6

They will finish a new 737 hangar with 3 bays in Apr 2012. Will they do AA 737 heavies? Good timing a coincidence? Or was this all planned out by AA last year? Once heavies get outsourced, they stay put.

 

[700UW]

A raise?

Are you kidding?

I have been through two chapter 11 cases at US Airways and was on the NC for the last one, you wont see a raise out of chapter 11.

No airline's employees came out of chapter 11 with gains, its all loses.

Educate yourself.

 

[2ndGENAMT]

Officials at the Transport Workers Union, which represents more than 11,000 American mechanics and related work groups, said American executives in recent months have toured commercial aircraft maintenance facilities in South America.

Looks Like Mr. Little and his propaganda machine are starting at the Tulsa Chokehold to keep the most revenue coming into the TWU coffers.. Member Pay and Benefits are usually an afterthought..

 

[TWU informer]

A raise?

Are you kidding?

I have been through two chapter 11 cases at US Airways and was on the NC for the last one, you wont see a raise out of chapter 11.

No airline's employees came out of chapter 11 with gains, its all loses.

Educate yourself.

In my opinion it will be about the bottom line as cost per ASM compared to competition.

AA could give a payraise, get the items described above, and come out with a cost structure lower than the competition.

AA is claiming an $800 million dollar per year cost disadvantage, and most if not all of that is coming from pensions and retirement medical.

This Bankruptcy began different than those you were involved in and it will also end different than those you were involved in.

 

[TWU informer]

You may be presenting the worst case scenario. That is more than a haircut, its like a severely deep sissors cut at the neckline .


With Unlimited Outsourcing of Overhaul and Line Maintenance Operations, why would
DWH get unlicensed AMT/OSM's, if there is nothing for them to do? Support shops with OSM’s do support heavy maintenance. If the Heavies go away, support shops go away too. Check out Sunday’s Tulsa World AA article. Rumors of AA reps at South America MRO. That location probably is in San Salvador and is called Aeroman. link.

http://www.aeroman.com.sv/en-company.jsp?idCat=6

They will finish a new 737 hangar with 3 bays in Apr 2012. Will they do AA 737 heavies? Good timing a coincidence? Or was this all planned out by AA last year? Once heavies get outsourced, they stay put.

Simple answer is this, just because AA obtains Unlimited Outsourcing doesnt mean everthing goes to outsource.
There are many things we do very well and do them within reason as far as cost, on the other hand there are those things we do not do well. There is an advantage to keeping your overhaul within your reach. Just ask those doing major outsource. Once you are no longer a threat to the third party vendor, your cost will be controlled by them not you, and you will pay more not less.

I think the answer is to obtain the unlimited outsource potential, and then create a culture that one must compete to keep doing the work. Instead of the current culture, that has no accountability and work is guaranteed. Of course given the recent arbitration decisions on outsourced work, AA really already has that ability now without contractual changes. There must be changes in our attitudes regarding competition of overhaul work, and the real threat of it all leaving is a real hammer and a reality that must be faced.

In other words you keep what makes good business sense and outsource the rest. And that doesnt mean ALL work is outsourced by any stretch of the imagination.

Not only that but AA cant just flip a switch and get rid of all overhaul. Even those we compete with still do engine work and light C checks, and I believe the Landing Gear operation in Tulsa is on the verge of becoming third party revenue generating. They need more space, and that will come once the Pratt Engines are retired. The whole South End of the Turbine Building will become a Landing Gear Center.


Unlimited Outsource doesn't mean everything leaves. What it means is management regains the leverage to increase productivity, reduce turntimes, and lower the cost. Otherwise, then it leaves. In other words I think we enjoy one more shot at saving our own asses but we leadership from both union and management to succeed.

 

[FWAAA]

Given AA's habit of overreaching, I would expect substantial work rule changes,outsourcing of smaller stations,termination of the pension (There is no point in filing for chapter 11 if they continue to have a pension obligation of any kind hanging over their head.),dramatic increases in healthcare costs for active employees and retirees and at a minimum,a 15% cut in pay.

This is their opportunity to put the hammer onto labor, they will not let it pass.

I expect the worst so when it happens I'm not surprised.

I agree with your predictions. You don't spend hundreds of millions of dollars on a bankruptcy (lawyers, accountants, investment bankers, consultants and others) and then trim expenses. You slash and burn expenses, including wages and benefits.

That said, I agree with Informer - certain employees could see increases in pay rates, particularly in workgroups where keeping employees is critical and the current contract wage levels are falling behind. Of course, severe headcount reductions and productivity improvements would go hand in hand with any increases.

Pilots, FAs and Fleet: expect to see top-out wages cut substantially. Probably cut enough to convince long-timers that it's time to do something else with one's time.

The pension? Horton will have failed miseralbly if he doesn't get what UA and DL both accompished in bankruptcy: a distress termination of the pilot plan for starters. Probably a termination of the other plans as well.

I predict that AA will cut its consolidated CASM by at least two cents per mile, perhaps further, well below DL, UA or US. Even lower than WN.

In 2011, AMR spent about $7.1 billion on wages, salaries and benefits. I predict that 2013 will see total AMR wages, salaries and benefits of $4.5 billion or less.

 

[Buck]

It is my understanding that a major issue going into this bankruptcy, was not wages, but work rules. In my opinion the employees had the wage issue removed in 2003.

 

[700UW]

You really need to take of your rose colored glasses and put the koolade down.

You wont get a raise in bankruptcy, not gonna happen, you will take pay cuts, benefit cuts, loss of scope language and many jobs.

I have a little bit more experience with you on this matter.

Go look at both US' chapter 11 visits, DL, UA and NW, your lucky that you wont end up in chapter 7, you will experience lots of concessions, not gains.

You really dont understand the process dont you?

Every item in your CBA has a dollar amount attached to it, you are going to suffer pay cuts, job and benefit losses, and scope. You might not see money taken out in your hourly wage, I doubt this, but your paying for it one way or another.

It takes years to get back what you will lose, at US we are on our 1st post CBA and negotiating the second, and yes there were gains gotten, but still not even close to where it was.

Your gonna get hosed, and you really have no power in the matter.

 

[limit]

This is what I predict as some obvious possibilities:

My version:

AA/AE Operations merged into one single carrier AA operation One Pilot Union/One Management Team

Numerous RJ Leases andmore MD80 Leases rejected
All Purchases Approved during BK period.
757 Leases Rejected

APA Pension - PBGC New 401K plan
APFA Pension - Hard Freeze New 401K plan
TWU Pension - Hard Freeze New 401K plan,old plan retained for 55 and up

All Prefunding eliminated - Employee Contribution plus matching funds and interest refunded.


New Payscales - For smaller AA A/C and new APA hires
New Payscales - For TWU and APFA New Hires

Unlimited ability for Outsourcing of Overhaul and Line Maintenance Operations.

Some line stations will go right away, and those that fail to compete will be cut later. Up to you save your job.
Line will not lose as many stations as feared.
B and lower checks retained by line.
Higher premiums or area pay for line stations.

Unlimited Outsourcing of Title II
Some will go right away, and those that fail to compete wil be cut later. Up to you to save your job.

Overhaul or whatever you want to call it:

7 Day Coverage at Overhaul Base.

One big base to remain,probably Tulsa.

Remaining heavy base to lose some heavy checks,
and have a contract that enables the company to outsource or retain/return all heavies as they see fit.

Light C checks stay at remaining base, with OSM's on the docks performing some duties (seats, interior items etc)

All support shops to remain OSM.

No skill pay premiums for the shops (welders and machinists included)

License premium if you work on the dock for the license you use ( structures only gets A and so on).
General mechanics retain both.

New way of selecting crew chiefs and pay raise to boot.
Same for QA.

No early out.

Work Rule Changes in all Union Groups
With at least 4 years minimum CBA terms.

And I actually believe a pay raise will still come to employees that are left on the property.
Not much more than what offered previously.
Could include new stock ownership also.
New Variable Compensation Plan (Profit Sharing)

 

[2ndGENAMT]

You really need to take of your rose colored glasses and put the koolade down.

You wont get a raise in bankruptcy, not gonna happen, you will take pay cuts, benefit cuts, loss of scope language and many jobs.

I have a little bit more experience with you on this matter.

Go look at both US' chapter 11 visits, DL, UA and NW, your lucky that you wont end up in chapter 7, you will experience lots of concessions, not gains.

You really dont understand the process dont you?

Every item in your CBA has a dollar amount attached to it, you are going to suffer pay cuts, job and benefit losses, and scope. You might not see money taken out in your hourly wage, I doubt this, but your paying for it one way or another.

It takes years to get back what you will lose, at US we are on our 1st post CBA and negotiating the second, and yes there were gains gotten, but still not even close to where it was.

Your gonna get hosed, and you really have no power in the matter.

We (M&R) already went through bankruptcy as far as pay and benefits (except Pension) are concerned back in 2003..

We were already hosed down pretty well!!

The process and outcome for every Bankruptcy is different!!