TWU Chapter 11 - AA 1113 Filing

[Buck]

I appreciate all the information and opinions on this board, however as for the AA bankruptcy, I do not require anyone to educate me on an issue I have no control over. I am likely to just ride this out and take what is given to me.

 

[Mr Red]

Do you not understand that they want to cut labor costs and they will achieve it by pay, benefit and work rule cuts to lower there costs lower than the major airlines?

And your going to suffer, its reality.

And in the first bankruptcy we didnt lose our pension and met their ask, but in the second one the pension was terminated.

You are blinded to reality, your gonna get cuts that are going to be painful, thats the truth, just trying to warn you, but you guys know it all, you lived it and your only fixing planes cause you dont want to practice law, is that the case?

A lot of us are just waiting for dust to settle.If its time to roll the box out the door then so be it!There are a lot of jobs out their for GOOD mechs.In hindsight I made a bad decision over 20 years ago.Ive' made a lot of friends and worked with some great mechanics at AA. Life goes on .

 

[enough already]

delete

 

[2ndGENAMT]

We are all hoping for the best..I don't care what is said on here but my gut feeling is the company, creditors do not want a huge battle with the unions as it could lead to liquidation..

Here is a good article on how NW's bankruptcy process went..

http://www.abiworld.org/committees/newsletters/pensionsbenefits/vol2num3/Decisions.html

I realize the TWU has the least leverage but there WILL be negotiation!!!

 

[enough already]

Do you not understand that they want to cut labor costs and they will achieve it by pay, benefit and work rule cuts to lower there costs lower than the major airlines?

And your going to suffer, its reality.

And in the first bankruptcy we didnt lose our pension and met their ask, but in the second one the pension was terminated.

You are blinded to reality, your gonna get cuts that are going to be painful, thats the truth, just trying to warn you, but you guys know it all, you lived it and your only fixing planes cause you dont want to practice law, is that the case?

We've got cutbacks, yes we do...

We've got cutbacks, how 'bout you??!!

 

[Bob Owens]

Do you not understand that they want to cut labor costs and they will achieve it by pay, benefit and work rule cuts to lower there costs lower than the major airlines?

And your going to suffer, its reality.

And in the first bankruptcy we didnt lose our pension and met their ask, but in the second one the pension was terminated.

You are blinded to reality, your gonna get cuts that are going to be painful, thats the truth, just trying to warn you, but you guys know it all, you lived it and your only fixing planes cause you dont want to practice law, is that the case?

You speak as if we have not suffered for the last eight years. Sure we still have our pensions and retiree medical, which you lost but I have yet to receive one pension check from the company or submit any expenses related to retiree health care because I'm not retired. We did however suffer by losing five holidays and only getting half pay for the holidays the company still recognized, how many Holidays and what rate of pay did you get for the last eight years? Vacation, made 25 years last year but I only got four weeks vacation, how much vacation did you get? Sick time, our max bank is 1200 hours, but there isn't much chance that I'll ever reach that since we only get 40 hours sick time per year, how much do you get? Training in addition to our 40 hours, paid at strait time, no double time, not ever, do you still get double time? Cr1' a letter of discipline stay in our files forever, how long do negative letters stay in your files? My medical went from $500/year to over $3000', copayment from $10 to $25 . So you can say that you were screwed because you lost things you were promised down the road but we gave up more than most did in real time. In fact we gave up so much that your employer , and others had to go back for more.

 

[700UW]

We lost five holidays also, we have half pay for the first three days of being out sick unless admitted to the hospital, lost plenty of vaction time.

All of this since 2002 and counting with concession getting worse in 2003 and 2004 and 2005.

Also gave concessions back in 1992, did you?

As you stated our pension was terminated 50% of our work outsourced, 46% of the mtc workforce laid-off.

And shall I bring up the closing of INT and GSO heavy mtc, SAN heavy and the engine shop and the loss of like 15 line stations.

All back shops closed, landing gear plating also in INT.

And we have had to pay for medical since 1992 and it has gone up substantially over the years.

We have taken more concessions at US than you have at AA and I feel bad as your going to suffer, but the Arrogance of some you is unreal, your not gonna come out with a raise and a better CBA than you had before they filed, you all think you suffered under the 2003 CBA, just wait till you see what comes out of 1113c negotiations.

And we were the lowest paid major after bankruptcy #2.

So cry me a river, your not the only airline and work group to give concessions and you wont be the last.

 

[Bob Owens]

We lost five holidays also, we have half pay for the first three days of being out sick unless admitted to the hospital, lost plenty of vaction time.

All of this since 2002 and counting with concession getting worse in 2003 and 2004 and 2005.

Also gave concessions back in 1992, did you?

As you stated our pension was terminated 50% of our work outsourced, 46% of the mtc workforce laid-off.

And shall I bring up the closing of INT and GSO heavy mtc, SAN heavy and the engine shop and the loss of like 15 line stations.

All back shops closed, landing gear plating also in INT.

And we have had to pay for medical since 1992 and it has gone up substantially over the years.

We have taken more concessions at US than you have at AA and I feel bad as your going to suffer, but the Arrogance of some you is unreal, your not gonna come out with a raise and a better CBA than you had before they filed, you all think you suffered under the 2003 CBA, just wait till you see what comes out of 1113c negotiations.

And we were the lowest paid major after bankruptcy #2.

So cry me a river, your not the only airline and work group to give concessions and you wont be the last.

You are the one saying that we did not suffer.

Didn't you have 12 holidays? We only had 10, you didn't say what you get as far as 1.5 x, 2x or 2.5 x for the holidays.
If you go to the Hospital don't you get full pay starting with the first day? How much do you pay for coverage?
You did not answer as to how much sick time you get, how many holidays you get, how much vacation you get. We also lost over 4000 mechanics but wee did Most of it through attrition. Everyone has been offered recall and they have been hiring off the street in many locations for around a year. They have not been getting an overwhelming response for the openings, despite all those dumped by the industry after 9-11 there were not a whole lot of guys with heavy transport experience looking to get back in the industry, they moved on. NY1 only got around 20 of the 300 they laid off back.

We gave concessions in every contract since 1983. When did your mechanics lose R &D? The half hour lunch? We lost that in 1983. How long are your progressions to top pay?
Are you saying that you no longer accumulate any pension or was your USAIR plan terminated and now the company contributes to the IAM Pension plan?

Your overhaul was doomed because we had OSMs, very low paid mechanics working in the back shops, you also had the disadvantage of having too many different types of aircraft. You lacked the economies of scale to make doing in house cost effective. Of all the majors that went through BK USAir was probably the most likely to have gone C7.

Yes your mechanics are the bottom of the industry as far as topped out wages, however the average pay at USAIr is undoubtably higher than AA once we factor in OSMs ,and our OH guys do not make more than your mechanics, at least 3 out of 4 mechanics at AA earn less than their counterparts at USAIR,(even after two rounds of BK and farming out most of your OH). I believe that all your mechanics top out at The same rate don't hey? So AAs topped line mechanics on nights make around 50 cents more than your guys, that's $1040 a year, your guys make that up by getting an extra week of paid vacation, thats worth at least $1320. once we add in the Holidays your guys come out ahead.

Was USAir ever really a major carrier? We're they ever the largest?

 

[tech2101]

You are the one saying that we did not suffer.

Didn't you have 12 holidays? We only had 10, you didn't say what you get as far as 1.5 x, 2x or 2.5 x for the holidays.
If you go to the Hospital don't you get full pay starting with the first day? How much do you pay for coverage?
You did not answer as to how much sick time you get, how many holidays you get, how much vacation you get. We also lost over 4000 mechanics but wee did Most of it through attrition. Everyone has been offered recall and they have been hiring off the street in many locations for around a year. They have not been getting an overwhelming response for the openings, despite all those dumped by the industry after 9-11 there were not a whole lot of guys with heavy transport experience looking to get back in the industry, they moved on. NY1 only got around 20 of the 300 they laid off back.

We gave concessions in every contract since 1983. When did your mechanics lose R &D? The half hour lunch? We lost that in 1983. How long are your progressions to top pay?
Are you saying that you no longer accumulate any pension or was your USAIR plan terminated and now the company contributes to the IAM Pension plan?

Your overhaul was doomed because we had OSMs, very low paid mechanics working in the back shops, you also had the disadvantage of having too many different types of aircraft. You lacked the economies of scale to make doing in house cost effective. Of all the majors that went through BK USAir was probably the most likely to have gone C7.

Yes your mechanics are the bottom of the industry as far as topped out wages, however the average pay at USAIr is undoubtably higher than AA once we factor in OSMs ,and our OH guys do not make more than your mechanics, at least 3 out of 4 mechanics at AA earn less than their counterparts at USAIR,(even after two rounds of BK and farming out most of your OH). I believe that all your mechanics top out at The same rate don't hey? So AAs topped line mechanics on nights make around 50 cents more than your guys, that's $1040 a year, your guys make that up by getting an extra week of paid vacation, thats worth at least $1320. once we add in the Holidays your guys come out ahead.

Was USAir ever really a major carrier? We're they ever the largest?

I gave more than you gave...Blah, blah, blah...

I have had more taken than many here other than the EAL guys that I worked with that struck EAL, then with us.

Let me add to this productive conversation. I gave/lost it all to support you all. Now you continue to step all over each other and eat your young.

I am so glad the the executives at NWA (read DAL) showed me the way.

There is a great world out there. I am a shining example that you can make lemonade out of lemons, and I am not alone.

 

[Bob Owens]

I gave more than you gave...Blah, blah, blah...

I have had more taken than many here other than the EAL guys that I worked with that struck EAL, then with us.

Let me add to this productive conversation. I gave/lost it all to support you all. Now you continue to step all over each other and eat your young.

I am so glad the the executives at NWA (read DAL) showed me the way.

There is a great world out there. I am a shining example that you can make lemonade out of lemons, and I am not alone.

I think you missed the point. I respect what you guys did and I was against the concessions in 2003, in fact we fought it so hard that our International removed Chuck Schalk and I from office and kept us out for five years. Both of us have been re-elected twice since. He is promoting concessions because they fell over themselves back in 2002 to give concessions, only to see the company file C-11 anyway and come back for more. He defended the decision to give concessions both before and after BK. We have been going at it since 2002. I had urged our International President at the time to pledge support for USAIr workers in BK and threaten a General Strike of all he airline unions should they abrogate USAIRs contract with their unions. I knew that if they got away with it there that we all would end up getting screwed. He is coming here saying that we are going to face what he faced, my point is we already did, we just gave in different ways. We gave in ways that saved AA more in the present tense, vacation, Holidays, sick time, IOD Time, a 600% increase in medical coverage, straight time for hours worked in excess of 40 etc, they retained many things that we gave up but lost things in the future. Basically they went for the bird in he hand while we went for the one in the bush. but for him to come here and claim that we have not suffered is wrong and if he is right then I too will do like you and move on.

 

[MCI transplant]

:unsure: ------- Oh!OH! Bob! I think you have egg on your face!!!! Bob, your not listening to what this man is saying! There are a lot of people out there that have been through a hell of a lot more than those at AA!----- What I think he's trying to say is you should stop crying in your beer and get on with it!------ Whatever "it" might be!

 

[Bob Owens]

:unsure: ------- Oh!OH! Bob! I think you have ege on your face!!!!

How so?

 

[xUT]

I gave more than you gave...Blah, blah, blah...

I have had more taken than many here other than the EAL guys that I worked with that struck EAL, then with us.

Let me add to this productive conversation. I gave/lost it all to support you all. Now you continue to step all over each other and eat your young.

Very well stated! Few appreciate what AMFA @ NWA has sacrificed for the good of the M&R.
I do!
Everyone was very happy to support NWA M&R on the internet but I didn't see much on the picket line.
But after seeing the 'non-support' of M&R, IBT voted in at UA, I pulled my lead parachute at the first opportunity.

I am so glad the the executives at NWA (read DAL) showed me the way.

There is a great world out there. I am a shining example that you can make lemonade out of lemons, and I am not alone.

No, you are not alone!
B) xUT

 

[MCI transplant]

How so?

<_< -------- Read my edited post!

 

[TWU informer]

I think you missed the point. He is coming here saying that we are going to face what he faced, my point is we already did, we just gave in different ways. We gave in ways that saved AA more in the present tense, vacation, Holidays, sick time, IOD Time, a 600% increase in medical coverage, straight time for hours worked in excess of 40 etc, they retained many things that we gave up but lost things in the future. Basically they went for the bird in he hand while we went for the one in the bush. but for him to come here and claim that we have not suffered is wrong and if he is right then I too will do like you and move on.

I read back through the post to get a clear understanding of what is being said.

I don't see where 700UW said "we did not or have not suffered"

What he is saying is we are going to suffer more now and I agree with that.
What he is saying is we have now lost control of the outcome and I agree with that.

What we are saying is really we are asking or agueing for some mercy because we have given already. And I hope that is granted.

What he is saying is they will not care about what we have already given, they are going to take more regardless.

I refuse to live my life or go to work in fear. I know I have no control over the outcome of this. So I choose to believe that we will be dealt with according to that which is fair and just. I still believe there is fair and just management out there and that they are not all evil and unjust.

I do know that we really have no more say in the outcome, but we do have a say in whether we choose to stay or leave for the terms that we end up with.

What would be wrong is to stay and scorch the place before leaving so those that might wish to stay have nothing to stay for.

One day we will all look at our own responsibilities that has lead to this outcome and stop blaming someone else or something.

Learn to rest your emotions and learn to trust good judgement. Learn to trust that you will be taken care of , instead of living a constant belief that you will be given more turmiol than you can handle. Learn to trust in something other than yourself, your union, or your government. Then you will find contentment and peace.

This is just an internet forum full of opinions, it is not the truth that each of us seek.