Ual In Trouble!. . . . .

twuer

Veteran
Jul 9, 2003
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www.usaviation.com
"Bankruptcy is the better alternative to concessions." Isn't that Delle's intelligent opinion?????

Amfa made their bed and now must lie in it. What will they do next?????




WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) -- UAL Corp. was rejected for a third and final time Monday in the United Airlines parent's bid to win federal aid. (sounds a bit like amfa and the NMB!!!!!)

All three members of the Air Transportation Stabilization Board voted
against giving UAL a $1.1 billion loan guarantee. (I bet amfa thinks they are corrupt just like the NMB!!) UAL, the nation's second-largest airline, was seeking the loan guarantee to help it emerge from Chapter 11 federal bankruptcy protection from creditors.

The ATSB reiterated that granting the requested aid wasn't necessary to
maintaining a safe and viable commercial airline system in the United
States. UAL had taken positive steps to lowering its costs, the federal
board said, adding that an improved credit market for the airline
industry increases the likelihood that UAL will survive.

"After carefully considering the additional financial information
submitted as part of United's request for reconsideration, the board
determined that this information does not alter in a material manner the
rationales underlying the board's June 17 decision," the ATSB said in a
statement.

Last week, UAL reported earnings from operations totaled $9 million in
May, a reversal from the carrier's $155 million loss from operations in
May 2003.

"The board will not accept any further submissions from United," the ATSB
said.

UAL, based in Elk Grove Village, Ill., is seeking to cut costs further.

The company is on track to reduce its annual expenses by $5 billion,
which would represent a 30 percent reduction since it filed for
bankruptcy protection in December 2002. The carrier already has
identified another $300 million in other cost cuts.

Lender talks

Undeterred, UAL soon plans to start talks with potential borrowers about
the company's business plan. (some of the associate amfa members like to give up their money freely, mabye they should ask them for donations!!!!)The company had hoped to secure $500 million from private investors as part of its plan to get the federal loan guarantee.

A major portion of its financing to exit bankruptcy would consist of
debt, according to UAL.

"The work we have done over the past 18 months has created a solid,
highly competitive business platform that we expect will attract the
capital necessary to exit," UAL said in a statement. "We are now holding
discussions with our lenders and others to determine what an appropriate
overall capital structure might be."

Airline consultants and analysts say UAL will have to dig up at least
another $700 million to $1 billion in cost savings
to lure private
investors. (HMMMM, now where will they get that kind of money?????)

"United is a very powerful worldwide franchise and they should be able to
attract capital if they have the right cost structure," said Blaylock &
Partners analyst Ray Neidl. "They are not in serious trouble." Listen to
interview.

The company's pensions "may now be a target for reduction," added
Standard & Poor's credit analyst Philip Baggaley. UAL has over $4 billion
in minimum pension payments due through 2008. (and you are surprised?????????)

Other labor concessions are also likely. (Imagine that!!) So far, UAL's workers have
agreed to cost cuts to the tune of $2.5 billion.

In addition, some UAL assets may be sold to generate cash. Those might
include its lucrative Asia-Pacific routes, its slots at London's Heathrow
airport, and its longer-haul Airbus A320 planes, observers said. (more loss of jobs?????)

Shares of rival carriers -- most notably, AMR Corp., Delta Air Lines and
Continental moved higher.

Houston-based Continental applauded the loan rejection, saying the "most
appropriate course of action is to allow the marketplace to determine the
shape of the industry."





Only time will tell what kind of (more) damage amfa will have caused.


GO AMFA!!!!!!!
:down: :down: :down:
 
twuEr..........you may have your airlines mixed up. AMFA was not at UAL when they filed BK or when their current contract was signed. AMFA has not negotiated a contract at UAL. They are only policing what the iam left them. Glad I could help.

Keep the Faith.........AMFA NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
TWUer, tomorrow is Jim Little's deadline to take "ACTION" against the company. Will our pension be given away when this "ACTION" is taken, or how about another 17.5% paycut? Are you gonna "share" and "sacrifice" some more,TWUer? Oh by the way it was the IAM,ALPA,UAL management that got UAL into bankruptcy court,not AMFA. Brian Conners is one of the IAM scum that put UAL into bankruptcy,and you TWU dummies parade him around like he is some type of hero!
 
twuer said:
"Bankruptcy is the better alternative to concessions." Isn't that Delle's intelligent opinion?????

Amfa made their bed and now must lie in it. What will they do next?????




WASHINGTON (CBS.MW) -- UAL Corp. was rejected for a third and final time Monday in the United Airlines parent's bid to win federal aid. (sounds a bit like amfa and the NMB!!!!!)

All three members of the Air Transportation Stabilization Board voted
against giving UAL a $1.1 billion loan guarantee. (I bet amfa thinks they are corrupt just like the NMB!!) UAL, the nation's second-largest airline, was seeking the loan guarantee to help it emerge from Chapter 11 federal bankruptcy protection from creditors.

The ATSB reiterated that granting the requested aid wasn't necessary to
maintaining a safe and viable commercial airline system in the United
States. UAL had taken positive steps to lowering its costs, the federal
board said, adding that an improved credit market for the airline
industry increases the likelihood that UAL will survive.

"After carefully considering the additional financial information
submitted as part of United's request for reconsideration, the board
determined that this information does not alter in a material manner the
rationales underlying the board's June 17 decision," the ATSB said in a
statement.

Last week, UAL reported earnings from operations totaled $9 million in
May, a reversal from the carrier's $155 million loss from operations in
May 2003.

"The board will not accept any further submissions from United," the ATSB
said.

UAL, based in Elk Grove Village, Ill., is seeking to cut costs further.

The company is on track to reduce its annual expenses by $5 billion,
which would represent a 30 percent reduction since it filed for
bankruptcy protection in December 2002. The carrier already has
identified another $300 million in other cost cuts.

Lender talks

Undeterred, UAL soon plans to start talks with potential borrowers about
the company's business plan. (some of the associate amfa members like to give up their money freely, mabye they should ask them for donations!!!!)The company had hoped to secure $500 million from private investors as part of its plan to get the federal loan guarantee.

A major portion of its financing to exit bankruptcy would consist of
debt, according to UAL.

"The work we have done over the past 18 months has created a solid,
highly competitive business platform that we expect will attract the
capital necessary to exit," UAL said in a statement. "We are now holding
discussions with our lenders and others to determine what an appropriate
overall capital structure might be."

Airline consultants and analysts say UAL will have to dig up at least
another $700 million to $1 billion in cost savings
to lure private
investors. (HMMMM, now where will they get that kind of money?????)

"United is a very powerful worldwide franchise and they should be able to
attract capital if they have the right cost structure," said Blaylock &
Partners analyst Ray Neidl. "They are not in serious trouble." Listen to
interview.

The company's pensions "may now be a target for reduction," added
Standard & Poor's credit analyst Philip Baggaley. UAL has over $4 billion
in minimum pension payments due through 2008. (and you are surprised?????????)

Other labor concessions are also likely. (Imagine that!!) So far, UAL's workers have
agreed to cost cuts to the tune of $2.5 billion.

In addition, some UAL assets may be sold to generate cash. Those might
include its lucrative Asia-Pacific routes, its slots at London's Heathrow
airport, and its longer-haul Airbus A320 planes, observers said. (more loss of jobs?????)

Shares of rival carriers -- most notably, AMR Corp., Delta Air Lines and
Continental moved higher.

Houston-based Continental applauded the loan rejection, saying the "most
appropriate course of action is to allow the marketplace to determine the
shape of the industry."





Only time will tell what kind of (more) damage amfa will have caused.


GO AMFA!!!!!!!
:down: :down: :down:
twuer, is it AMFA's fault that the ATSB will not give money to UAL? Is it AMFA's fault that UAL management does not have a viable business plan?

Come on, difference of union beliefs is one thing but "spinning" this as a fault of AMFA's does nothing to support your stance of the twu.

BEFORE AMFA was certified the iam gave away the farm. (No pun intended.) Under the iam concessions were taken from the membership. AMFA is merely operating under the iam negotiated contract.

The iam at UAL & USAir has allowed deep concessions. CONCESSIONS DO NOT SAVE AIRLINES! Under the twu's sister industrial union, the iam, AMTs at UAL have been poorly represented. Under AMFA they, and our profession, have a fighting chance to protect it.

I am sorry to see you spin this denial from the ATSB as something that AMFA had influence over. I guess then as you see it not only AMFA is at fault here but also the other unions at UAL.

GO AMFA! GO AMFA!

:up: :up: :up:
 
I guess after they saw the concessions that AA was able to get from their so called unions they figured they would make UAL go back and try and get the same cost saving, wage reducing, benifit eliminating contract that the TWU is famous for. I bet all the banks would just love it if every Union was like the TWU!

So in reality its not the IAM or the AMFAs fault, its the TWUs fault!
 
Watch out!
UAL will ask the bankruptcy court to take the pensions from the workforce!

Once that happens, AA will tell the TWU that UAL is at a cost advantage and AA must follow suit with respect to the pensions!
 
Other labor concessions are also likely. (Imagine that!!) So far, UAL's workers have
agreed to cost cuts to the tune of $2.5 billion



Unlike the twu who has all ready given 6 billion in concessions :shock:

The company's pensions "may now be a target for reduction," added
Standard & Poor's credit analyst Philip Baggaley. UAL has over $4 billion
in minimum pension payments due through 2008. (and you are surprised?????????)


Unlike AArogant Airlines who has 6 billion in minimum pension payments due :shock:


Only time will tell what kind of (more) damage amfa will have caused


I know all the trouble UAL is in is because of the AMFA. :blink:

You are a simple minded individual who refuses to see the big picture. Thank god the twu is not at UAL or the AMTs would be working for minimum wage. Hey but everyone would have a job right. The twu is the leader in concessionary contracts and the degradation of the AMT that is a fact
 
Ken MacTiernan said:
twuer, is it AMFA's fault that the ATSB will not give money to UAL? Is it AMFA's fault that UAL management does not have a viable business plan?

Come on, difference of union beliefs is one thing but "spinning" this as a fault of AMFA's does nothing to support your stance of the twu.

BEFORE AMFA was certified the iam gave away the farm. (No pun intended.) Under the iam concessions were taken from the membership. AMFA is merely operating under the iam negotiated contract.

The iam at UAL & USAir has allowed deep concessions. CONCESSIONS DO NOT SAVE AIRLINES! Under the twu's sister industrial union, the iam, AMTs at UAL have been poorly represented. Under AMFA they, and our profession, have a fighting chance to protect it.

I am sorry to see you spin this denial from the ATSB as something that AMFA had influence over. I guess then as you see it not only AMFA is at fault here but also the other unions at UAL.

GO AMFA! GO AMFA!

:up: :up: :up:
I am sorry to see you spin this denial from the ATSB as something that AMFA had influence over.

Ken, you can't be serious??????? As much spinning as you guys have been putting on this NMB thing???????? Give me a break. We all know the story. AMFA had a huge influence on the BK decision at UAL. Delle preached it, advocated it!!! I see there are no comments about that from you folks in denial!!!

If they had not gone into BK this converstation would not be taking place!!! There is no spin Ken. Amfa fails again to take responsibiltiy for their actions!!!!!!





Can you say DOUBLE STANDARD??????????
 
Ken, you can't be serious??????? As much spinning as you guys have been putting on this NMB thing???????? Give me a break. We all know the story. AMFA had a huge influence on the BK decision at UAL. Delle preached it, advocated it!!! I see there are no comments about that from you folks in denial!!!

And the twu preaches concession and advocates concessions. They give to the company every contract that is a fact. You would give it all up just to have a job. You are a coward who will not fight for your profession or what you are worth. That is what the twu pteaches.
 
TIME FOR CHANGE said:
And the twu preaches concession and advocates concessions. They give to the company every contract that is a fact. You would give it all up just to have a job. You are a coward who will not fight for your profession or what you are worth. That is what the twu preaches.
Be careful about calling TWUER a coward, he will remind you that he served his country. He might even want to whoop your A**.
 
twuer said:
I am sorry to see you spin this denial from the ATSB as something that AMFA had influence over.

Ken, you can't be serious??????? As much spinning as you guys have been putting on this NMB thing???????? Give me a break. We all know the story. AMFA had a huge influence on the BK decision at UAL. Delle preached it, advocated it!!! I see there are no comments about that from you folks in denial!!!

If they had not gone into BK this converstation would not be taking place!!! There is no spin Ken. Amfa fails again to take responsibiltiy for their actions!!!!!!





Can you say DOUBLE STANDARD??????????
How is it that AMFA influenced a BK at UAL even though AMFA was not representing anyone there at the time? Is it because management knew they would have to open thier books and be honest with a craft union like AMFA instead of the twu sister union iam?

I am not spinning anything here twuer. I am merely stating that UAL is being run be non-airline people, just like at AA. How can a company, ANY company, charge a fee for thier product for less than it costs them? Concessions are not the answer. And loan bail outs from the tax payer does not change the fact that managements in today's airlines know what they are doing. Except SWA and the cargo side of the industry.

UAL reduced thier asking from 1.6 BILLION to 1.1 BILLION. What happened? Did UAL ask for too much? Do they even know how much they need? If an airline can not run thier bussiness by making a profit then that airline should cease to exist. TWA was the most recent victim of poor management and I believe that USAir is next.
 
twuer said:
We all know the story. AMFA had a huge influence on the BK decision at UAL. Delle preached it, advocated it!!! I see there are no comments about that from you folks in denial!!!

If they had not gone into BK this converstation would not be taking place!!! There is no spin Ken. Amfa fails again to take responsibiltiy for their actions!!!!!!





Can you say DOUBLE STANDARD??????????
TWUer;

This is a classic example of the deceptive tactics of the TWU and one of the reasons why they have to go. Lets look at the facts over at UAL.

Fact: There was an AMFA drive going on at UAL and the majority of AMFA supporters were against concessions.

Fact; The majority of the M&R members at UAL voted against concessions.

Fact; The concessions were rejected.

Fact; The ATSB denied uals request for a loan.

Fact; The ATSB said that even if the mechanics had accepted the concessions that they still would have rejected Uniteds application.

Fact; Despite the fact that UAL is in bankruptcy their workers earn more money, have better benifits, get credit for every year worked towards their pension, get paid holidays, full sick pay, doubletime etc.

Opinion; The greatest threat to the workers at UAL is the TWU. The TWU has lowered the bar which in turn will pressure other carriers to seek more concessions to match those given at AA. Once those concessions are obtained, AA, citing the fact that they have overhaul, will come back for more concessions setting off the industry for yet another round of concessions. The average TWU member makes $15/hr. A top paid mechanic still makes double that. As far as the leaders of the TWU are concerned there is still plenty of room to cut in the contest between the AFL-CIO unions to drive each other out of the industry by bankrupting each others companies. While raiding is clearly taboo, stealing members by undercutting their company's labor costs is not.(Isnt that ironic? Raiding is bad but lowering wages and living standards is ok) Clearly the IAM, with their more militant culture is at a disadvantage to the perenially pro-company TWU. The TWU with its huge core of workers in low cost Tulsa will have a lot easier time convincing its members that more concessions are needed.

If we do not get rid of the TWU soon, the whole industry is doomed.
 
Bob Owens said:
TWUer;

This is a classic example of the deceptive tactics of the TWU and one of the reasons why they have to go. Lets look at the facts over at UAL.

Fact: There was an AMFA drive going on at UAL and the majority of AMFA supporters were against concessions.

Fact; The majority of the M&R members at UAL voted against concessions.

Fact; The concessions were rejected.

Fact; The ATSB denied uals request for a loan.

Fact; The ATSB said that even if the mechanics had accepted the concessions that they still would have rejected Uniteds application.

Fact; Despite the fact that UAL is in bankruptcy their workers earn more money, have better benifits, get credit for every year worked towards their pension, get paid holidays, full sick pay, doubletime etc.

Opinion; The greatest threat to the workers at UAL is the TWU. The TWU has lowered the bar which in turn will pressure other carriers to seek more concessions to match those given at AA. Once those concessions are obtained, AA, citing the fact that they have overhaul, will come back for more concessions setting off the industry for yet another round of concessions. The average TWU member makes $15/hr. A top paid mechanic still makes double that. As far as the leaders of the TWU are concerned there is still plenty of room to cut in the contest between the AFL-CIO unions to drive each other out of the industry by bankrupting each others companies. While raiding is clearly taboo, stealing members by undercutting their company's labor costs is not.(Isnt that ironic? Raiding is bad but lowering wages and living standards is ok) Clearly the IAM, with their more militant culture is at a disadvantage to the perenially pro-company TWU. The TWU with its huge core of workers in low cost Tulsa will have a lot easier time convincing its members that more concessions are needed.

If we do not get rid of the TWU soon, the whole industry is doomed.
Bob, you talk about average wages at AA being $15. What are the average wages at SWA? I mean include all those virtual SWA mechs that work at Timco, Tramco etc. They are doing the overhauls, so for a balanced picture they will have to be included; or don't count Tulsa's SRP/OSM shops when you talk amt pay.

Personally I see Tulsa sold if AMFA ever gets in. Delle has set the precedent with NWA and UAL.
 
Personally I see Tulsa sold if AMFA ever gets in. Delle has set the precedent with NWA and UAL.

7915 this is a real possibility regardless who is in. I don't have any idea how much work is farmed out in tulsa and can't get any answers but comparing the turbine building now to what it was 15 years ago it looks pretty empty. We now use it to store parts and also have about a 200 seat auditorium (I havn't counted the chairs could be twice this many) in areas that used to be shops. Did Delle cause this? How many machinsts do we have now compared to 1989? There have been talks for years about GE and PRATT taking over the turbine building and the talk is more prevalent now than ever. The twu can't stop this from happening.
 

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