Ual Mechs Vote No, Authorize Strike

usairways_vote_NO said:
Under § 1113, the rehabilitative goals of the Bankruptcy Code prevail
over the policies of labor law. A debtor-in-possession remains bound as an
“employer†under the NLRA, and must comply with its provisions, including
the requirement to bargain collectively, but rejection of the collective
bargaining agreement will not be an unfair labor practice if the debtor
complies with the requirements of § 1113.79

You show us where your code you quote says

1. Union is no longer the bargaining unit in or out of bankruptcy

2. Where it says union cannot strike in or out of bankruptcy

3. Where it says company can impose whatever it wants AND have it as a contract with an amendable date
I'll wait for you to help us out here and point it out to us.

Can you tell us what you think happens after the contract is abrogated and the company comes out of bankruptcy? And after you do please point us to your references to why you think it happens that way. Thank you very much.

Please don't cop out and say "since the crisis is such that neither the union nor management can agree to work together to move the airline forward the airline fails"
[post="244122"][/post]​

Right here numbnut, straight out of the Amfa9 website.

http://www.amfa9.org/waypoints/Documents/A...ection_1113.htm

Section 1113 threatens our contract

By Malik Miah

11/10/04

On November 5, UAL filed a “Notice of Motion†before the United States Bankruptcy Court. It states that United “respectfully requests that this Court conduct a scheduling conference at the November 19 Omnibus Hearing to discuss scheduling matters related to potential motions to reject the Company’s collective bargaining agreement under U.S.C. & 1113(c ).†Further, “United will use its best efforts to reach consensual resolutions with its unions. United thus seeks a schedule that allows the parties to negotiate as long as possible while also providing the relief United needs by mid-January.†AMFA received from management the “term sheet†of proposed changes to the CBA on November 4. The article below discusses the 1113© process and the article on the opposite page discusses the union’s initial response. -Editor



We face a challenging and trying reality. UAL management is using its financial crisis to open a new stage in the Chapter 11 process. The possibility now exists that the Court can decide to render our Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) null and void.

UAL management attributes its financial crisis is to declining revenue caused by internet ticketing, low cost carriers and rising fuel costs (see the fuel story on page 7 of this issue).

UAL aims to impose further significant changes in work rules and conditions of employment for mechanics and related employees under an ever-changing business plan. Its goals include the “likely termination†of the defined benefit pension plan, reduction in wages and other hard-earned benefits.

If the judge voids the contract, United is free--if it chooses--to impose wage, work rule and benefit changes as it sees fit.

AMFA will utilize all the resources at its disposal as it responds to this attack on our members and their families. This response will include national officers and professional staff.

In addition, to prepare for the battle ahead of us, we need to understand the bankruptcy 1113 process. It is unlike any other negotiation a union faces.

Our goal

The bankruptcy law allows a company operating under Chapter 11 to bring motions before the court to modify or radically alter legally binding contracts.

Jim Seitz, the AMFA UAL Airline Contract Administration Coordinator, in an October 18 letter to the membership, explained, “As AMFA UAL Representatives we have a responsibility to our membership to protect our contractual rights, and profession.†Section 1113 of the bankruptcy code provides a mechanism for a bankrupt company to seek contractual changes.

The company will state their position as to what contractual changes they believe are necessary and why. Our goal will be to evaluate the company position, preserve our members’ contractual rights and provide alternatives to concessions. It is the responsibility of both parties to negotiate in good faith and attempt to reach a consensual agreement during the 1113 process. If both sides cannot come to agreement, the bankruptcy judge will review negotiations to determine whether both sides have negotiated in good faith, whether there is good cause for the union’s refusal to accept the company’s proposal, and whether, on balance, the equities favor acceptance of the company’s proposal.

1113© and 1113(e)

Bankruptcy law contains two sections of the 1113 process. Section 1113© involves the “total rejection†of a CBA. Section 1113(e) enables temporary changes to the CBA.

Section 1113(e) allows a company to ask a judge to impose temporary wages, work rules and benefits if the continuation of a company’s business is at risk without immediate relief. If a judge imposes temporary modifications, they are not a matter for negotiations with the union and are not subject to member ratification. This is what we initially suffered in 2003 before the company filed a Section 1113©. The threat of an abrogation of the contract led a majority of members to vote to accept the current contract. That’s what occurred in October at US Airways when a 21% wage cut was imposed on the unions by the bankruptcy court.

On the other hand, the negotiations required under section 1113© aim to achieve a permanent solution. The 1113© negotiations would continue even if 1113(e) temporary modifications were imposed. The 1113© process, and the application for a complete rejection of the contract, would still go forward. The temporary modification would only be in effect until the judge rules on the application to reject the CBA, or permanent modifications to the agreement are negotiated, ratified by the membership and approved by the bankruptcy judge.

Judge as final arbiter

In an 1113© application the judge has several options when making a ruling. He can reject the company’s application and leave the labor contract intact. He can approve the application and terminate the labor agreement completely. Or, he can listen to the arguments of the company and union at the court hearing and instruct the two parties to go back to the bargaining table.

If the judge voids the contract, United is free--if it chooses--to impose wage, work rule and benefit changes as it sees fit. The Association likewise is free to act in our best interests. It does not mean necessarily a strike or any specific action by the union. It simply indicates that the crisis is such that neither the union nor management can agree to work together to move the airline forward.

Section 1113 is fast tracked
The short timeline of the 1113 process increases the threat posed to our interests. Unlike the slower paced normal contract opener under Section 6 of the Railway Labor Act, the bankruptcy process is fast tracked. If no consensual agreement is reached between the company and union within the allotted time, the threat of the judge accepting the company’s motion hangs over our heads.

While the end of the process appears bleak, it is still a process. The union negotiators must keep the members informed. Your input must not only be at the decisive final vote but also during the talks as they unfold. Stay informed. Attend a business meeting, monitor the union bulletin boards, and visit Way Points online at www.amfa9.org/waypoints. The site will be updated as events unfold.

Malik Miah, UAL Airline Representative and Editor of Way Points


Now, does this article clearly indicates we can strike?

The Association likewise is free to act in our best interests. It does not mean necessarily a strike or any specific action by the union.[/U]
 
Bob Owens said:
Well what have you put forward? Sems that usairways-vote-no put facts with links forward. You said that was the old code, Ok, where is the new one?

I was under the impression that after Lorenzo busted the Pilots through BK that the law was revised to give labor more protection, not less.
[post="244269"][/post]​

Read above and read it carefully. Does it give you anymore protection than before? The only difference between now and before is there's the 1113 process to slow down the motion to abrogate.
 
Also, To Ronin and his cronies:

AMFA doesn't even know for sure whether we have the right to strike or not...

28 January 2005

Letter to the UAL members from the AMFA National Director. Click here


Local 9 members:

Until further notice from official sources, there is to be NO job actions or other Self help initiatives taken by individual members or groups of members. The Strike committees around the system will be meeting in the next several hours to begin preparations should the need arise in the near future, however, as this is the first time that an Airline membership has REJECTED a proposed agreement during the 1113c process, we are entering untested legal waters.


http://www.amfa9.org/newsupdates.htm
 
ual747mech said:
Hey loser, quit your whining already.  Are you happy now that we got a bigger paycut than what you could've gotten.  It's stu*id loser like you who learns the hard way or don't learn at all.  If you're so damn upset why don't you freaking quit and find something else but the fact is you're too damn scared to go out there.  You've been spoon fed all your life you're spoiled.  If you want to committ suicide don't drag me down with you.
[post="244322"][/post]​
[deleted by moderator]...
 
ual747mech said:
Hey loser, quit your whining already. Are you happy now that we got a bigger paycut than what you could've gotten. It's stu*id loser like you who learns the hard way or don't learn at all. If you're so damn upset why don't you freaking quit and find something else but the fact is you're too damn scared to go out there. You've been spoon fed all your life you're spoiled. If you want to committ suicide don't drag me down with you.
[post="244322"][/post]​

ual747mech,

I'll put this in my famous quotes of the gutless whininess of fearful mechanics.

I have been preaching that this day might come and that we should 'all' be prepared for this eventuality. I am not going to 'quit' appeasing you and/or our inept management, as I will stay here to 'fight the good fight'!!!

I've really given you a lot of latitude in your postings from our last fiasco here at the 'LazyU' and I empathize with some of your more factual postings, but you need to get a 'grip' on yourself.

Your panic is showing like this is some 'new' development.

When are you willing to stand 'upright' and see our situation for what it is?

(JMHO&PO) Get off your knees man!!!
UT
 
ual747mech said:
Now, does this article clearly indicates we can strike?

[post="244330"][/post]​

That is an article from union and their own interpretation

I want the code .. answer my questions from previous post don't dodge them
 
usairways_vote_NO said:
That is an article from union and their own interpretation

I want the code .. answer my questions from previous post don't dodge them
[post="244397"][/post]​

First of all why don't AMFA and all the unions do that for us.. They have their mighty lawyers and analysts to do that for us. The fact is they don't know for sure whether we can strike or not.

Local 9 members:

Until further notice from official sources, there is to be NO job actions or other Self help initiatives taken by individual members or groups of members. The Strike committees around the system will be meeting in the next several hours to begin preparations should the need arise in the near future, however, as this is the first time that an Airline membership has REJECTED a proposed agreement during the 1113c process, we are entering untested legal waters.

http://www.amfa9.org/newsupdates.htm
 
UAL_TECH said:
ual747mech,

I'll put this in my famous quotes of the gutless whininess of fearful mechanics.

I have been preaching that this day might come and that we should 'all' be prepared for this eventuality. I am not going to 'quit' appeasing you and/or our inept management, as I will stay here to 'fight the good fight'!!!

I've really given you a lot of latitude in your postings from our last fiasco here at the 'LazyU' and I empathize with some of your more factual postings, but you need to get a 'grip' on yourself.

Your panic is showing like this is some 'new' development.

When are you willing to stand 'upright' and see our situation for what it is?

(JMHO&PO) Get off your knees man!!!
UT
[post="244364"][/post]​

I'm not panicking my brother, I'm just trying to educate some of our immature colleagues so they can make smarter decisions. These fools from the other carriers don't have a right criticize my vote because they don't know what our situation is. I don't go to their site criticizing or provoking them, what they do or how they decide their fate is their own business. As for Ronin, he's the most immature fool I know on this board, he's shown it repeatedly. If anyone wants to debate issues I'm willing to do it in a civil manner, unlike Ronin and his cronies. As far as getting off my knees, what makes you think I'm not capable of doing that, I left other companies numerous times before United and I'm going to do it again if things don't get better unlike others who talk a lot of BS.

Take care my brother.
 
Look a**wipe, you voted they way you thought was right. No problem there. You resent people from other airlines battering you here, the moderator's should have known what would happen when they opted to drag this thread over here. But your whine and dribble or crusade to "enlighten" us immature, emotional, un-educated, stupid people who didn't understand their vote is really annoying and quite frankly, condenscending. Not everyone might understand what their vote meant, unfortunately that happens. But most of us did. Respect the process, respect others opinions and perspectives. Telling me to "find another job" is like, play the game my way or I take my ball away. Now who is childlike? I am sorry for calling you a pussy. I AM emotional but NOT stupid. I live a fairly simple code:
Push me once...you got my attention
Push me twice...now I'm pissed off
Push me thrice...ONE OF US IS GONNA DIE
 
The Ronin said:
Look a**wipe, you voted they way you thought was right. No problem there. You resent people from other airlines battering you here, the moderator's should have known what would happen when they opted to drag this thread over here. But your whine and dribble or crusade to "enlighten" us immature, emotional, un-educated, stupid people who didn't understand their vote is really annoying and quite frankly, condenscending. Not everyone might understand what their vote meant, unfortunately that happens. But most of us did. Respect the process, respect others opinions and perspectives. Telling me to "find another job" is like, play the game my way or I take my ball away. Now who is childlike? I am sorry for calling you a pussy. I AM emotional but NOT stupid. I live a fairly simple code:
Push me once...you got my attention
Push me twice...now I'm pissed off
Push me thrice...ONE OF US IS GONNA DIE
[post="244436"][/post]​

Admit it, you're stupid and immature and the biggest whiner there is. Let's see who's the biggest pussy here, you claim full pay till the last day but yet you're still here when it's not full pay anymore. The fact of the matter is you're too damn afraid to go out there and try to look for something better because you can't and who would hire a big cry baby like you. If you don't like what's going on then just leave already so you can have peace of mind. The more you try to fight something you know (or do you know?) you can't stop is stupid. You're union already told you that this is a 1113 process not Section 6 negotiation so are you that stupid to understand what's going on? You say they can't make you come to work if they abrogate your contract yet you still come to work when your pay has been slice and diced like veqetables cut by a Ginsu knife, you're full of sh*t. Go make your picket sign and tell the company how unhappy you are already but you won't do that because you haven't got the pair to do it.

Later cry baby, I'm out of here.

Take care UT, this will be my last post, I got better things to do, life's too short. Be happy B)
 
ual747mech said:
Take care UT, this will be my last post, I got better things to do, life's too short.  Be happy B)
[post="244471"][/post]​

Of course it is you have no backup for all your hot air on here and all you could do was resort to getting upset and calling names. Nice
 
ual747mech said:
Read above and read it carefully.  Does it give you anymore protection than before?  The only difference between now and before is there's the 1113 process to slow down the motion to abrogate.
[post="244333"][/post]​


Well if you want to sit back and wait for a corporate friendly Judge to tell you, what do you think he is going to say?

He will say that its up to him and let it maybe get sorted out ten years from now in the Supreme court.

Thats why workers need to take the position that the RLA is a law that we have followed for 75 years and it clearly states that when the employer changes terms we can resort to self help.

It is the RLA that prohibits us from striking in the first place however under certain conditions it does allow us to use self help.

The RLA specifies one way to reach that condition but does not imply that its the only way. It is clear that if the conditions exist and the company has imposed new terms that the workers can resort to self help.

I also dissagree with the claim that this is untested waters. Continental got a Judge to void its pilots contract, and the pilots were free to strike. This has happened before. While not encouraging it does show that when an agreement is abrogated you have the right to strike.

In this country we have always operated on the principle that unless something is expressly forbidden by law then it is allowed. Its part of the Freedom that we have as Americans. Our ability to withhold our labor is definetly one of those Freedoms. So even if the Judge says no strike the union must be willing to go anyway citing its rights as per the RLA.


If unions were not willing to defy Judiciary legislation unions would never have existed. Mike Quill the leader of the TWU told a Judge to drop dead, that if they did not have a contract they were going on strike and no court order could force his members to work. The Judge put him in Jail and the trains stopped running. Quill was right. Cort orders did not move trains. Thats the only way labor will ever win. The Judges are not on our side, listen to them, and you may as well just listen to the company.


Read the Law. It says that the reason why we cant strike a private sector corporation, like other workers can, is because they are providing us certain guarantees. One being that our wages and benifits can't be changed from what we agreed to,the status quo is to be maintained until the parties are released to self help. When the company initiates self help and imposes its terms the workers are free to self help. Its a pretty simply concept. Bankruptcy is merely a means by which the company can circumvent the NMB process and go directly to self help, with the blessings of a Judge, nowhere does it say that you are not free to withhold your labor once the company changes the terms. The Judge has to cite something in law that gives him the right to take what is yours and give it to a corporation.

I have not seen anything that gives the Judge that right. I may be wrong but even when he imposed temporary concessions the Unions should have said if their rates are changed they will engage in self help. Then let the Judge justify his reason for blocking them. Like I said, if you substitute in Exxon in place of the union would a Judge dare force Exxon to continue to supply fuel to any airline at a rate which is below what they agreed to? Has the Judge forced any other creditor or supplier to continue to provide their product to any carrier under terms they did not agree to? Why should labor be treated as inferior to inanimate goods? While bankruptcy may protect a company from those to whom they owe debt to does it give them the right to continue to take what they want at whatever price they want?

From what Ive read BK gives the Judge the right to free the bankrupt company from burdensome contracts.

It does not give the Judge the right to impose new contracts.

If a Judge were to say that he was abrogating the deal, allowing the company to change the terms of the agreement to whatever they felt like, but then said that the union could not strike he would in fact be imposing a new contract on the workers that is entirely without precident. It would be a one sided contract. He would in effect be saying that the court no longer recognizes collective bargaining. He would be saying that not only could he cancel contracts but that he could impose new ones, not temporary ones as mentioned, but in fact, permanent ones. Such a ruling is counter to the principle of private property and the intent of the law.
 
ual747mech said:
Take care UT, this will be my last post, I got better things to do, life's too short. Be happy B)
[post="244471"][/post]​

ual747mech,

And you as well.
Don't be a stranger, discourse is a path to enlightenment.

Take Care,
B) UAL_TECH

Diogenes said:
Discourse on virtue and they pass by in droves. Whistle and dance the shimmy, and you've got an audience.
 

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