US Pilots' Labor Discussion 11/17-11/30..ALL Pilot Labor Issues Discussed HERE

[BoeingBoy]

And there were also no complaints by a very well off pilot group (at the time) when PI did not give Empire DOH with fences and restrictions. That was not my battle and I was on neither property for the discussion, so I have no idea of the thought processes going on. All I really know is under the USAPA CBA it would have gone down differently. As would have the Shuttle.

You really should know a little more about a situation before using it for an example. While I personally thought that the Empire pilots should have been integrated by relative position, they did get permanent use of their DOH for all bidding as long as they were on the F28 as well as furlough based on their Empire DOH. To this day the former Empire pilots would be furloughed by their Empire DOH. So they received conditions and restrictions better than what USAPA was willing to give the West pilots.

The thought process was very similiar to that of the US pilots for the Shuttle integration - what is best for "our" pilots that has a chance of success. In other words, how low on the combined list can "we" put those pilots.

At least the PI pilots, never having been through a previous merger, didn't say that "DOH has always worked" for one merger but abandon that completely for the Empire merger. But that "DOH has always worked" was heard repeatedly from the US pilots during the US/PI merger but not heard during the US/Shuttle merger, only to emerge again for the US/HP merger. The difference? DOH benefited the US pilots in the US/PI merger, would have put the Shuttle pilots further up the combined list in that merger, and benefits the US pilots in this merger.

As I said, situational "Gold Standards". What disheartens me the most is the former PI pilots who now are "true believers" in DOH after fighting for relative position during the US/PI merger and at least accepting relative position for the US/Shuttle merger. It really is amazing what effect a chance to advance at the expense of others can have...

Jim

 

[Megasnoop]

I did Bubba. That update pertains ONLY to the requested 1.8 million dollars in legal fees incurred by AOL.

It refers to a lot more than that, 53.

Here's the part that you may be referring to:

USAPA will pay the attorneys’ fees and other litigation expenses incurred in defending this action from membership dues and agency fees. By operation of the RLA, USAPA can assess membership dues or agency fees against the entire bargaining unit. In effect, therefore, the entire bargaining unit (including West Pilots) must share the burden of USAPA’s attorneys’ fees and other litigation expenses.

In pursuing this action, Plaintiffs incurred attorneys’ fees and other litigation expenses comparable to those incurred by USAPA. In contrast to USAPA, however, Plaintiffs cannot assess the members of the entire bargaining unit to pay those fees and expenses. They can pay only from voluntary donations, largely made by West Pilots. Hence, absent a fee and expense award by this Court, West Pilots will bear a share of the attorneys’ fees and expenses from both sides while East Pilots will bear only a share of the attorneys’ fees and expenses from the defense of USAPA. West Pilots, therefore, would bear a substantially greater burden than East Pilots. Surely, as the prevailing parties, as parties who bear no responsibility for this litigation or for its excessive expense, West Pilots ought not to bear a greater burden than the East Pilots.


If the Court awards Plaintiffs their attorneys’ fees and other litigation expenses, the burden will be evenly distributed among all members of the bargaining unit. West Pilots will bear no greater or lesser burden than East Pilots. Attorneys’ fees and other expenses from both sides will be paid from membership dues and agency fees assessed by USAPA. That is surely an equitable result."

It does not address any damages (since the damages trial will not take place until next spring). I know that I am looking forward. I am simply trying to draw out a line of possible events, and hopefully find some east pilots that are willing to help stop this train wreck. So far it's no looking too good.

53, you forgot this part (always best to keep debate in full context):
For the benefit of West pilots, we boldfaced and italicized two sentences three paragraphs up. We want all West pilots to understand exactly what the law is under the RLA – ALL PILOTS CAN BE ASSESSED FOR USAPA’S COSTS TO LITIGATE. We have heard some West grumblings concerning the use by our attorneys of the common benefit doctrine as apparently these West pilots think the plaintiff class should not be responsible for any of our expenses to litigate. That is an understandable reaction, but nevertheless it is an emotion reaction. For whatever reason, the Congress and the Judicial Branch have decided long ago that what these West pilots want reality to be, is in fact not so.

What’s more – and this one goes to the West and East objectors – case law appears to be on the side of USAPA to assess objectors and challengers alike for the costs of litigation, and we know this from research we have commissioned our attorneys to do. We will provide the legal justification for our statements regarding objector/challenger shortly as we know there have been a number of East and West pilots who are pursuing this avenue. However, for now we will just say that it is apparent to us that the objector/challengers can be assessed for the litigation just as if they were members. We don’t fault pilots for being angry over this litigation, but anger and logic are two very different things. This is one of those cases where the objectivity of the law conflicts with personal desires. On the other hand, we hope that everyone understands the benefits of having laws grounded in logic vice emotion.


Remember all the "debate" about germane costs? Looks like they were all germane after all. Reality is tough to eat sometimes. What AOL seems to be saying is even if West wins all the appeals, West pilots still pay, whether member/objector, same amount as each East member/objector pays. That's in addition to all your voluntary fundraising. That's the reality RR was talking about. Glad some of you realize it. Any wonder Don Stevens gone? I said before, we all pay, only attorneys win. Your attorneys may lose if you lose the expense motion. They won't get paid except through donations. Too bad the emotion of some of your side didnt understand the reality of who ultimately pays. We could have had more civilized debate. It wasn't USAPA who filed this DFR. Best case for you, we all pay the same amount, through assessment. Worst case for you, USAPA pays no AOL attorney fees, but ALL West pilots get assessed for USAPA legal costs. AOL's legal team ends up holding a win and a lot of bills. Udder called that a Phyrric vicotry as i remember. One thing the OAL update didnt get into was the costs of a damages trial. Same goes. Even if you win $50M (your number), we all split up the court costs and equally pay the damages. Even objectors, so that's over $10K each.
So 53, is reality finally starting to settle in?

 

[BoeingBoy]

What AOL seems to be saying is even if West wins all the appeals, West pilots still pay, whether member/objector, same amount as each East member/objector pays.

"For the cost of litigation" - i.e. attorney's fees and the like, not necessarily damages.

Jim

 

[Megasnoop]

"For the cost of litigation" - i.e. attorney's fees and the like, not necessarily damages.

Jim

You want to bet?

 

[Crzipilot]

BOS. Base gets a valentine surprise in Feb. Where does he go next?

 

[BoeingBoy]

You want to bet?

A small wager if I though you'd really pay if you lost. I've made no secret of my identity, unlike you.

Jim

 

[nic4us]

USAPA cannot "undo" the Shuttle integration, nor the Empire one..but we can going forward make sure the same thing does not happen again.

I have heard for years we need a national seniority list in this country. Had we started one 20 years ago as a fresh list using new hires, we would only now start to see it happen, as enough new guys came on the list to make it effective. Same with the intent of USAPA's Constitution.

Nor can usapa "undo" the USAirways/America West integration, which by the way was completely different from the others you mention, because this time the America West pilots were not integrated into the USAir list, more appropriately the USAirways pilots were merged with and into the America West list, go back and reread the Award, and pay attention to how and why east pilots were placed relative to their counterparts from America West. It was the West list that formed the baseline of where everyone ended up.

The intent of the usapa constitution was to disadvantage the America West pilots so we would have no say in usapa's attempt at renegging on the Nic. Back of the van, driving home from Herndon, you had to hear the story. Letters from attorneys telling you your intent was illegal, never mind those, we will write a constitution.

 

[oscarjazz]

I do not agree, but understand we are in fantasyland here. Had indeed, like USAPA, DOH been in the CBL for the ALPA carriers involved, the list would have been set in stone. It would be the Conditions and Restrictions that would have gone to arbitration. There would be no movement from or to DOH for the arbitrator to decide.

Of course I understand if we have another arbitration in a merger with (obviously) a non USAPA carrier, we will indeed be starting with all the marbles on the table. I will still take Allegheny/Mohawk over ALPA any day.

I understand this all may be wasted bandwidth, if Nic prevails. But if it is rendered moot, put asided, etc this will be a discussion we all will need to have again.

RR

Could you explain how Allegheny/Mohawk is any different than ALPA merger policy?

 

[nic4us]

Remember all the "debate" about germane costs? Looks like they were all germane after all. Reality is tough to eat sometimes........... What AOL seems to be saying is even if West wins all the appeals, West pilots still pay, whether member/objector, same amount as each East member/objector pays. That's in addition to all your voluntary fundraising.........

It wasn't USAPA who filed this DFR. Best case for you, we all pay the same amount, through assessment................

so that's over $10K each

Remember it well, and it is not over, arbitration scheduled for feb 10 2010. So it is still not decided exactly what is germane. Oh wait, did usapa write in its constitution that all expenses would be germane?, despite the laws involved that might make it so.

The rest of this post absolutely blows me away. "It wasn't usapa who filed this DFR" no usapa is the guilty organization breaking the law that needed to be brought to the justice system!...

What AOL is saying is usapa is going to pay for the cost of litigation. AOL gets their voluntary donations back ( Where do you think that money will go next?). Damages are a completely different story not addressed in the AOL update.

But speaking of the damages trial, if we get legal fees now, who do you think will pay the West's attorney fees during the damages trial.

Finally, 10k each. You do realize that if everyone of you ( I say you because I have still not paid usapa ) pays 10k to raise 50 million, that 50 million is divided amongst the West class.
50 mil / 1880 pilots = more than 10k. But I am guessing any award would preclude West class members from having to pay themselves, so to get 50 million from the remaining usapians, it would be 50 million/ 2800pilots= east pilots vote in a new union that has a constitution that bars it from paying damages awarded by federal courts, cause it would not be fair to hand over your lump sum distributions to the West now would it.

Is reality setting in yet?

 

[luvn737s]

hey I liked the coupon, saved me 10 bucks. More than I got from mgt.

BRILLIANT! It was YOUR 10 BUCKS to begin with!!


What it really was is a demonstration of the total lack of responsibility on the part of the drunken sailor known as USAPA. (with apologies to all sailors or drunks)

 

[Megasnoop]

Remember it well, and it is not over, arbitration scheduled for feb 10 2010. So it is still not decided exactly what is germane. Finally, 10k each. You do realize that if everyone of you ( I say you because I have still not paid usapa ) pays 10k to raise 50 million, that 50 million is divided amongst the West class. 50 mil / 1880 pilots = more than 10k.Is reality setting in yet?

Sounds like AOL called it like they saw it. That's why I quoted them. If you disagree with AOL, take it up with them, no point arguing with me. The math gets a little weird, doesn't it? $50M was 53's guess. $27K gross/west pilot, minus $10K? You got to win every appeal, every case, have arbitration declare DFR money not germane to have it all unfold the way you hope. Lots of hurdles. AOL was giving you a heads up on who pays. That's reality.

 

[nic4us]

That's reality.

The reality is, I just confirmed you have not put me on the ignore function.

In any event the fundamental truth of your original post is that we all pay and the lawyers win.

 

[cactusboy53]

You want to bet?

Snooper;
It's all there in black & white. I don't see how anyone could misconstrue how that dialog applies to anything other that the 1.8 million in litigation fees & services ONLY. So yes, I'll take that bet pertaining to a successful damages trial, and who pays those damages. The bet is a tall cold Sam Adams...what say you?

 

[Reed Richards]

Just to be clear. The ninth is not deciding on the Nicolau, the Nicolau has already prevailed. The ninth is going to rule on whether Judge Wake made an error or not the ninth will not nor cannot render the Nicolau list moot. If someone told you that or that is your belief then it is completely incorrect. If judge Wake made an error we go back and do the trial again. USAPA is still on the hook for DFR. I will guarantee that the Nicolau list will be a very small part of the trial next time, if we go there.

Just to be clear, Clear...how has Nic prevailed? The second the Ninth removes the injunction, the DOH list with fences and restrictions (unlike any other group on the property got) goes right back on the table. If the ninth does not remove the injunction, all bets are off. But as hundreds have said here before..no contract will pass a vote, at least until attrition says otherwise.

I am not connecting too well on my, as you joke, fantasyland scenario as to how the merger would have taken place with DOH in the ALPA CBL. We all know it was not there. Had it been there, I don't see how either side could have proposed lists that violated the CBL of the union that represented both of them. But no need to berate me more, it was just an observation.

As to renewed litigation following a removal of the injunction, I can only guess the 9th will have few things to say on the side after they first rule on ripeness (I don't know the legal term for those comments.) The last thing they will want is this turd of a lawsuit coming back to visit them again a few years from now. But what do I know?

RR

 

[Reed Richards]

You really should know a little more about a situation before using it for an example. While I personally thought that the Empire pilots should have been integrated by relative position, they did get permanent use of their DOH for all bidding as long as they were on the F28 as well as furlough based on their Empire DOH. To this day the former Empire pilots would be furloughed by their Empire DOH. So they received conditions and restrictions better than what USAPA was willing to give the West pilots.

Jim

The fact that you thought Empire pilots should have been integrated in "relative position" puts us at odds right off the start. Not my religion, and exactly why I was one of thousands of pilots that has now twice voted on a USAPA CBL that says otherwise. I will make the observation that by PI going, rather only focusing on relative position in the U/PI merger they did a great disservice to many middle seniority pilots by not having many more conditions and restrictions. PI guys were on a stellar path to the left seat, and could/maybe should have been protected for at least a few years for upgrade. Once again, DOH should be the gold standard for the list, and the rest should be taken care of with C and Rs. Why create the distraction in the first place? DOH would have focused the PI Merger team on C and R's, instead of allowing them the losing gamble of relative seniority.

As to protecting the forward movement of Empire guys by basing it on the F28..give me a break. That is pretty transparent to any aircraft aficionado looking at fleet compositions, even in the 80s. That would have been like protecting either side in the U/PI merger on only 727s. That sir is a crock, to even me. I cannot believe you even present it.

As to giving them only seniority for furlough, I would like to know how that has all worked out for them, and obviously you? Wait, we know how you made out on the deal, with not a squawk, a run for office to change it, and a self professed absence on any picket line. Not one former Empire pilot has ever come close to leaving the property, but every single one has never, in any of the next 2 mergers, been able to use their DOH in a seniority negotiation. And to be correct, AWA pilots were indeed offered, and will soon get, their original DOH of furlough purposes. Is that any different than you so graciously granted the Empire pilots? It will be better at USAPA, because the West pilots will always have their DOH going forward. Not so, in fact never so for the Empire pilots.

I am glad to see you also found time in your post to slam you own fellow PI pilots. At least you are an equal opportunity curmudgeon.

RR