Well This Isn't Good

[flyhigh]

Seriously, DALPA said pilots costs are only 9% out of wack and you think they're looking at anything thing other than dues??? Let's be serious. How long does anyone think it will take until we are what AA was last April??? I've looked at various pieces of financial material and even the untrained eye and mind can clearly see where the problem starts.

You mention the SERP program...ok, take the $16 million back...and we loose only $384 million in the first quarter of this year. What about the rest of the year's loses. What would DALPA have you chalk that up to??? Tiolet paper expense too high?

The reality is that we certainly need to thin executive ranks, and cut expenses. However, the one expense that can drive this company away from bankruptcy is brining pilot costs in line with the industry. Just as when pilots got the raises to bring them in line with the industry, the cust should mirror that.

Until this happens, this stock will continue to sputter downward (just as AA's did). At some point bankruptcy will become clear and DALPA can choose to make the difficult, but necessary decision, to help put this company in a competitive position like all other employees have, or they can let the court help them decide. It seems clear that Jerry is not interested in playing some game. He is truly interested in fixing the problems at Delta...one of which is Delta pilot pay.

 

[luv2fly]

Seriously, DALPA said pilots costs are only 9% out of wack and you think they're looking at anything thing other than dues??? Let's be serious.

You mention the SERP program...ok, take the $16 million back...and we loose only $384 million in the first quarter of this year.

He is truly interested in fixing the problems at Delta...one of which is Delta pilot pay.

You think the total dollar amount offered by DALPA was 9%?? I guess you forgot about the 4.5% raise in May. What about the additional 1200 pilot reductions Delta wants? Has your employee group suffered a 37% reduction in staffing? What about the dollar amounts for workrule concessions? I guess those don't count either. If you think all I stand to lose under ALPA's proposal is 9%, you are sadly mistaken. I would have given 9% on 9-12-01. I am being quite serious.
As far as the SERP... that 16 million was to one person!!!

"At some point bankruptcy will become clear and DALPA can choose to make the difficult, but necessary decision, to help put this company in a competitive position like all other employees have"

You made no conscious decision to help this company. You took those cuts involuntarily. You had no choice. Once again Fly, what is your position with Delta? How much of a pay cut did you take in straight pay?


He is truly interested in fixing the problems at Delta...one of which is Delta pilot pay.


I plan on attending one of Jerry's pilot road shows. I will reserve judgment until then.

 

[flyhigh]

I took the cuts voluntarily as I chose not to leave. I could, very easily submit my resume to one of the many Atlanta companies that is hiring or fields calls I have rec'd from head hunters, but I believe this is the best place for me and my set of goals.

My position...mgmt.


As for the $16 million...double it, triple it, quadruple it...it's still not the problem. The reality about the SERP's that people fail to understand is that while their retirment funds are protected, executive mgmt's is not. The bonuses were wrong, but the SERP problem is smoke and mirrors. To say that just because someone is an executive so their pension and retirement should be in play and at risk is sepratist and illogical.

I certainly encourage you to go to a road show. I think you'll find Jerry to be very candid and realistic. He's not a pie in the sky, head in the clouds guy imagining what the problems are. He's pinpointed them and focussed on making change to position the company for the long term.

 

[Vikedog64]

Seriously, DALPA said pilots costs are only 9% out of wack and you think they're looking at anything thing other than dues??? Let's be serious.

You mention the SERP program...ok, take the $16 million back...and we loose only $384 million in the first quarter of this year.

He is truly interested in fixing the problems at Delta...one of which is Delta pilot pay.

You think the total dollar amount offered by DALPA was 9%?? I guess you forgot about the 4.5% raise in May. What about the additional 1200 pilot reductions Delta wants? Has your employee group suffered a 37% reduction in staffing? What about the dollar amounts for workrule concessions? I guess those don't count either. If you think all I stand to lose under ALPA's proposal is 9%, you are sadly mistaken. I would have given 9% on 9-12-01. I am being quite serious.
As far as the SERP... that 16 million was to one person!!!

"At some point bankruptcy will become clear and DALPA can choose to make the difficult, but necessary decision, to help put this company in a competitive position like all other employees have"

You made no conscious decision to help this company. You took those cuts involuntarily. You had no choice. Once again Fly, what is your position with Delta? How much of a pay cut did you take in straight pay?


He is truly interested in fixing the problems at Delta...one of which is Delta pilot pay.


I plan on attending one of Jerry's pilot road shows. I will reserve judgment until then.

I'm sorry Luv to Fly, but what you are being asked to give up is the raises you received the last two years. All of us have had changes to healthcare. That is a fact of life. This is a critical time for our company. Am I afraid of more cuts? Yes, but I am more afraid of our company entering Chap. 11 and possibly not coming out. It is possible, you know. As far as the management bonuses, it sucked but we must move on.

 

[Vikedog64]

I took the cuts voluntarily as I chose not to leave. I could, very easily submit my resume to one of the many Atlanta companies that is hiring or fields calls I have rec'd from head hunters, but I believe this is the best place for me and my set of goals.

My position...mgmt.


As for the $16 million...double it, triple it, quadruple it...it's still not the problem. The reality about the SERP's that people fail to understand is that while their retirment funds are protected, executive mgmt's is not. The bonuses were wrong, but the SERP problem is smoke and mirrors. To say that just because someone is an executive so their pension and retirement should be in play and at risk is sepratist and illogical.

I certainly encourage you to go to a road show. I think you'll find Jerry to be very candid and realistic. He's not a pie in the sky, head in the clouds guy imagining what the problems are. He's pinpointed them and focussed on making change to position the company for the long term.

As a former Western employee, you are exactly right. Jerry is not interested in playing games. As he said in the Morgan Stanley Airline Conference, the hole will get deeper and the cuts will get deeper also.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

"The hole will get deeper, and the cuts will get deeper, also"

I agree !!

However, not because DALPA is going to cave into "grinch"steins demands of 30+%.

DALPA is no foolish organization.

Example: DALPA has already offered 9-10%. If DALPA(very publicly) offered to DOUBLE their offer to say 20%, There is NO WAY grinstein is going to purposely "tank" DL towards BK-11, because he can't INTIMIDATE DALPA to give him 30%.(In principle, DALPA does'nt OWE him SQUAT)

BUT, how does grinstein make up for the difference between a (hypothetical) DALPA 20% ???

By making the "hole deeper, and the cuts deeper, also"

Meaning more Comair flying, and "unchallenged" raping of the non union people.

If you see a major push by DL's AMT's for AMFA, coupled with a push for AFA for the F/A's, then my theory will be looking quite probable.


NH/BB's

 

[luv2fly]

As far as the management bonuses, it sucked but we must move on.

Vike,

The same could be said for a contract we signed several years ago, but we are disucussing it now. To quote Leo Mullin "A contract is a contract". I guess that only applies when it is convenient for managment.
Once again, in reality, the pilot group knows we need to take a pay cut, and are open to negotiation with managment. It is ridiculous that we are taking this 4.5% raise in May, but the company has insisted on all or nothing approach and it is not working. IMO, if Mr. Grinstein continues to insist of 35+% reductions, he will have to take us into BK in order to get it. I do not think the pilot group will voluntarily give up such amounts. Based on current company demands, I would vote no.
Just for your information, the 30% pay cut would take me back to roughly 1998 pay rates. Six years, not two. That doesn't include work rule concessions.

 

[WNrforlife]

Luv2fly -
Wake up and smell the cappucino - You can rant and rave about the SERPS all you want, and it won't change squat. This is the reality - The market no longer will support your current pay scale. Until you get that through your head, your company is headed straight toward Chapter 7.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2004-0...-17-delta_x.htm

Suck it up, and the necessary changes now before it is too late.

 

[Vikedog64]

As far as the management bonuses, it sucked but we must move on.

Vike,

The same could be said for a contract we signed several years ago, but we are disucussing it now. To quote Leo Mullin "A contract is a contract". I guess that only applies when it is convenient for managment.
Once again, in reality, the pilot group knows we need to take a pay cut, and are open to negotiation with managment. It is ridiculous that we are taking this 4.5% raise in May, but the company has insisted on all or nothing approach and it is not working. IMO, if Mr. Grinstein continues to insist of 35+% reductions, he will have to take us into BK in order to get it. I do not think the pilot group will voluntarily give up such amounts. Based on current company demands, I would vote no.
Just for your information, the 30% pay cut would take me back to roughly 1998 pay rates. Six years, not two. That doesn't include work rule concessions.

Luv, What exactly is there to negotiate? The crap is about ready to hit the fan and you are worried about going back 6 years in pay, that will still pay you a 6 figure income? I cannot understand your reasoning. Why are you willing to sacrafice everything? We all know that pilot costs alone will not turn things around, but it is one critical element. Look at AMR's press release yesterday. Their CASM is around 9.48 cents, a nearly 17% drop from a year ago while ours is over 10 cents. This market does not allow for bloated salaries...maybe another day but not today. In their press release, savings including wage concessions are pushing overall costs lower. (click to yahoo airline news for the press release.) Luv, you seem like a reasonable guy. There is no way that I believe that you would voluntarily sacrafice everything you have worked for all these years. Go listen to Jerry with an open mind and instead of your "union speaking for you", speak for yourself. You and I know that the pilot group is very divided about this and very scared..I bring this issue up on every trip I am on to get the groups opinion. Just something to think about..

 

[luv2fly]

The crap is about ready to hit the fan and you are worried about going back 6 years in pay, that will still pay you a 6 figure income? "

As a matter of fact, it will drop me below 6 figures. I barely make more than that now. These are the kind of generalizations that the public tends to believe.



I cannot understand your reasoning.

I would not expect you to as you are not in my position.

We all know that pilot costs alone will not turn things around, but it is one critical element.

Agreed.
Go listen to Jerry with an open mind

As I have stated, I will attend the roadshow, and I intend on keeping an open mind.
Jerry has proclaimed that at some point the pilot group is going to have to trust someone. My question to him will be why should that someone be him? Give me a reason and I might, but don't hand me some BS answer that all pilots make too much money, and that is the reason DL is losing money. Even fly, who has deemed himself management, declared that we would have broken even with these proposed cuts. Not true, but it makes for a good sound byte.
Unfortunately, I believe many pilots shart my attitude because there has been a constant abuse of trust.

 

[luv2fly]

Luv2fly -
Wake up and smell the cappucino - You can rant and rave about the SERPS all you want, and it won't change squat. This is the reality - The market no longer will support your current pay scale. Until you get that through your head, your company is headed straight toward Chapter 7.

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2004-0...-17-delta_x.htm

Suck it up, and the necessary changes now before it is too late.

This is the reality - The market no longer will support your current pay scale.

I agree it won't support the current pay scale. If I didn't, we wouldn't be dicussing pay and work rule concessions. What I don't agree with is the amount of reductions.

Hope everything is well at WN and no I am not being sarcastic.

 

[Vikedog64]

The crap is about ready to hit the fan and you are worried about going back 6 years in pay, that will still pay you a 6 figure income? "

As a matter of fact, it will drop me below 6 figures. I barely make more than that now. These are the kind of generalizations that the public tends to believe.



I cannot understand your reasoning.

I would not expect you to as you are not in my position.

We all know that pilot costs alone will not turn things around, but it is one critical element.

Agreed.
Go listen to Jerry with an open mind

As I have stated, I will attend the roadshow, and I intend on keeping an open mind.
Jerry has proclaimed that at some point the pilot group is going to have to trust someone. My question to him will be why should that someone be him? Give me a reason and I might, but don't hand me some BS answer that all pilots make too much money, and that is the reason DL is losing money. Even fly, who has deemed himself management, declared that we would have broken even with these proposed cuts. Not true, but it makes for a good sound byte.
Unfortunately, I believe many pilots shart my attitude because there has been a constant abuse of trust.

You are right, I am not in your position, but the reality is still smacking all of us in the face. We either lower our costs a ton, or risk losing more than what is proposed. All of us our facing this, not just you. We all, or most of us are preparing to live on less than we are making now. This company cannot grow again until our costs are in line and we all know that. Even Northwest pilots are agreeing to pay concessions as announced today and they make less than our pilots. The writings on the wall and in my opinion, we either make the sacrafice today and fight another day or severely risk our chance to recover.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

"The hole will get deeper, and the cuts will get deeper, also"

I agree !!

However, not because DALPA is going to cave into "grinch"steins demands of 30+%.

DALPA is no foolish organization.

Example: DALPA has already offered 9-10%. If DALPA(very publicly) offered to DOUBLE their offer to say 20%, There is NO WAY grinstein is going to purposely "tank" DL towards BK-11, because he can't INTIMIDATE DALPA to give him 30%.(In principle, DALPA does'nt OWE him SQUAT)

BUT, how does grinstein make up for the difference between a (hypothetical) DALPA 20% ???

By making the "hole deeper, and the cuts deeper, also"

Meaning more Comair flying, and "unchallenged" raping of the non union people.

If you see a major push by DL's AMT's for AMFA, coupled with a push for AFA for the F/A's, then my theory will be looking quite probable.


NH/BB's

Added ammo. for my theory,
(quote: The street .com)
NW pilots agree to give up 200 Million in wage concessions(about half what the company wants)


The old saying goes, "half a loaf is better than none" !!!!!!!!!!

I see the situation this way.(This is not a problem exclusively to DL)

Not so long ago, airlines would "shrink"(LAY OFF) if the unions played hard ball.

With "todays"(so called) union man buying into this management BULL #### of "shared sacrifice", (like what happened to us at AA, thanks to a #### load of spineless A$$ HOLES), management is(usually) able to keep from shrinking the airline. Which(IMHO) is a total DISREGARD for SENIORITY.

This situation is very unique at DL, because there is only "1" union.

IMHO, there is NO WAY that in BK-11, that a judge is going to hit DALPA with jerry's "suggested" 35% pay cut.

Note: "I sincerely hope that DL does'nt wind up in BK-11" !!!!!

However, CO has proven that an airline CAN come back from BK-11

The bottom line is very simple here.
Jerry is saying, "You WILL give back $$$$, AND your going to DO IT MY WAY"

DALPA(who is definitely "holding all the aces" here, should say, "We WILL give back $$$, BUT "WE WILL" do it OUR WAY"(including BK-11)

NH/BB's

 

[flyhigh]

NHBB-

Not sure how you can say that a judge would go with Jerry's number. When both sides go to the judge, and Jerry shows that this company has removed $2B in costs yet is still uncompetitive. he will also show many initiatives underway aimed at reducing costs & generating additional revenue (new RM system for example) that will still not get us to where we need to be in ordeer to be competitive. Further, he will show that all other employee groups are paid at just slightly above or at industry average and that all other work groups have taken cuts (either real pay and/or benefits). Lastly, he will show where would be if pilots took their share of the cuts to be where everyone else is...at or just above industry avg. It's a compelling arguement and creditors will agree.

The worst part of this scenario is that to get to this point means all shareholders (which includes MANY employees) would loose the value of their investment. I am starting to think that the stock will have some self fulfilling problems in that as the price sinks going forward, many employees, et. al. will sell off to protect their personal value which would lead to further erosion of the stock price, thus additional selling, and so on...

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

flyhigh,
I'll agree with you that either way, it's not a pretty picture !!

But speaking only for myself(AA)(I fully realize that we're the "poster child" for airline management teams, in regard to "shared sacrifice"), it was proven that we ramp workers would have had our wages and bennies cut LESS, if we forced AA into BK-11. I realize, that may sound unlikely, but It's true(case in point/UA)

It's kind of funny, in that since "grinch"stein DOES NOT give a rats a$$ about what a legal contract means(DALPA), would'nt you think that he'd take(NOW) what ever DALPA was offering, and THEN seek to violate the very contract he just (hypothetically) signed with DALPA.

I still think he takes a BIGGER risk in "crying" before a BK judge to get his 35% from DALPA in "one shot", than by trying to "get it", in incriments.

NH/BB's