2007 PHL Int'l Departures

[jerseyfinn]

" That was actually "Field of Dreams" that had Kevin Costner believing "If you build it [baseball field], they will come"

Thanks for the correction PHL. You see, I'm living so close to Philly that my memory is getting corroded. 😉

Barry

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

.....I have heard that they have been studying a route to Copenhagen in addition to the Stockholm service. .....
.

CPH service would be wonderful, indeed. (Year round flights would be even better.) I was a surprised when ARN was added rather than Copenhagen; connection possibilities seem greater at the latter. Also suprising is the lack of code-sharing with SAS.


And welcome to USAviation, EKCH!

 

[aredeeyou22]

Actually, yes - PIT.....

How many years was Allegheny/USAir successful when PIT was it's only hub? Only 40-some.

How many years has US Airways been successful with PHL as it's "premier hub"? Not saying there's necessarily a connection, but we've had 2 bankruptcies since PHL has had that distinction.

While PIT may not be the ideal location for a "midwest" hub, where else are you going to put one? Name a city between the Ohio river and the Rockies that has more O&D than PIT, has the facilities for a hub operation, and isn't already heavily served by another carrier.

Jim

Agreed, Jim. PIT was a successful hub. Unfortunately, the days of the $1000 walk up fare PIT-SYR are gone. Forever.

PIT O&D traffic is low. Very low. It is, however, being stimulated with very low fares from WN, etc, albeit not incredibly sustainable fares. If we wanted to have a hub to connect east west traffic through, PIT is geographically undesirable. Somewhere in the middle of the country would be much more workable. After all, the O&D high yield traffic is not exploding out of PIT, so somewhere in Kansas might work just as well....

I am pretty sure that PHL makes more $$$ than it loses, or we would simply not be there. We would be in PIT, with the nicer facilities, etc.... I am not from PHL, but find myself here because of the company I work for, as do many of us. So, we make it work, or we sink. CLT, PIT, PHX do not generate the revenue that PHL does, so our choice is to fix PHL. We don't have a DFW, ORD, or ATL, so PHL is it. Lovely reality, is it not?

 

[Jimmy Neutron]

PIT O&D traffic is low. Very low.

Can you please just give us a break on this crap about PIT's O&D traffic....

CLT has less then 1/2 the O&D traffic at PIT.......

Your problem is you listen to and believe everything the management of this company tells you....

Wake Up!

 

[Travels2mch]

Can you please just give us a break on this crap about PIT's O&D traffic....

CLT has less then 1/2 the O&D traffic at PIT.......

Your problem is you listen to and believe everything the management of this company tells you....

Wake Up!

He's also like a broken record...O&D...PIT low...geographically undesirable...Kansas...fix PHL...makes $$$...blah blah blah!!

It's like one of those call directors where you get stuck in an endless loop.....or 'Groundhog Day'!!

That kool aide must be some really strong SH#$!!

 

[zethya]

Can you please just give us a break on this crap about PIT's O&D traffic....

CLT has less then 1/2 the O&D traffic at PIT.......

Your problem is you listen to and believe everything the management of this company tells you....

Wake Up!

INCORRECT.
For the year 2005. PIT O&D was 7,096,350 and CLT was 6,763,960. Pittsburgh can only dream about having O&D twice that of CLT, just as they dream about taking traffic from their big sister in the east. Suggest that if you wish to make a point, you get your facts straight first. Also, if PIT is so viable, why hasn't WN expanded it's service since shortly after startup? It surely isn't due to lack of gates as it is at PHL. WN wants to add 40+ more daily flights out of PHL as soon as the appropriate terminal expansions are completed. Suggest the PIT cheerleaders face reality as outlined here and cease the futile effort that bashing PHL will achieve anything positive for their beloved airport:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06274/726505-147.stm

 

[rjh]

Start with pay raise? Come on. I just visited the Corvette plant in Bowling Green, Ky where the employees are represented by the UAW. They were the laziest workers I have ever seen. They make PHL ramp look like workaholics and the UAW workers are making $20 an hour.
Money isn't the answer. Its work ethic. I don't think this is just a PHL problem. Just go to any fast food. The younger people that work there could give a crap. Maybe that's why they prefer to hire "seasoned" workers.
You could pay the PHL people $50 an hour and it would still be the same.

I agree. Working on the ramp is considered an entry level job. Most people will not want to make a career out of it, even if it pays $20 an hour ..just like fast food cook and a cashier at Target. Entry level jobs will always have high turnover, that's why companies don't pay very high for those jobs.

 

[EKCH]

CPH service would be wonderful, indeed. (Year round flights would be even better.) I was a surprised when ARN was added rather than Copenhagen; connection possibilities seem greater at the latter. Also suprising is the lack of code-sharing with SAS.
And welcome to USAviation, EKCH!

Thank you "Dont call me Shirley"

The reason is simple – SAS is afraid of losing traffic on their services to the US from Scandinavia. That’s the reason for the lack off codeshare and why US preferred Stockholm over Copenhagen.

So basically there is no cooperation between US and SK in the Scandinavian market and this will most likely not change if US decides to start a CPH service. As a matter of fact SK would more then delighted to see US leave the Scandinavian market - So they will be on their own…

 

[LD3]

INCORRECT.
For the year 2005. PIT O&D was 7,096,350 and CLT was 6,763,960. Pittsburgh can only dream about having O&D twice that of CLT, just as they dream about taking traffic from their big sister in the east. Suggest that if you wish to make a point, you get your facts straight first. Also, if PIT is so viable, why hasn't WN expanded it's service since shortly after startup? It surely isn't due to lack of gates as it is at PHL. WN wants to add 40+ more daily flights out of PHL as soon as the appropriate terminal expansions are completed. Suggest the PIT cheerleaders face reality as outlined here and cease the futile effort that bashing PHL will achieve anything positive for their beloved airport:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06274/726505-147.stm

I am not too sure you can believe more O&D means more revenue than a city with less O&D...how much does it cost US to move a pax thru PIT??

 

[aredeeyou22]

I am not too sure you can believe more O&D means more revenue than a city with less O&D...how much does it cost US to move a pax thru PIT??

Bingo.

Can you please just give us a break on this crap about PIT's O&D traffic....

CLT has less then 1/2 the O&D traffic at PIT.......

Your problem is you listen to and believe everything the management of this company tells you....

Wake Up!

Not sure about your O&D assessment of PIT vs CLT, might want to check that. Oh, and also, the traffic being stimulated in PIT is largely low yield traffic from WN, etc.... We could have tons of flights in PIT still if we wanted to fill planes with $59 fares to FL and $129 fares to the West Coast... 🙄

Not listening to management at all, looking at the numbers. Do numbers lie?

He's also like a broken record...O&D...PIT low...geographically undesirable...Kansas...fix PHL...makes $$$...blah blah blah!!

It's like one of those call directors where you get stuck in an endless loop.....or 'Groundhog Day'!!

That kool aide must be some really strong SH#$!!

Broken record? Ok, how about this: I will stop talking about the fact that PIT will never be more than what it is now ever again, if you promise to stop talking about how management abandoned it, and we should move connecting traffic from PHL to PIT, etc. Deal? Because, unfortunately, it's not going to happen!

Kool aid? Nope, just being realistic. Maybe you should try it? 😉

 

[PHL]

From the Bureau of Transportation Stats:

Originating Traffic, all airlines by city/year:

Year/City/Passengers(mil.)

1995/PHL/7.93
1995/PIT/9.13

1996/PHL/8.49
1996/PIT/9.29

1997/PHL/9.65
1997/PIT/9.17

1998/PHL/10.2
1998/PIT/8.9

1999/PHL/10.3
1999/PIT/7.9

2000/PHL/10.9
2000/PIT/8.6

2001/PHL/10.3
2001/PIT/8.67

2002/PHL/10.65
2002/PIT/7.85

2003/PHL/11.51
2003/PIT/7.03

2004/PHL/13.46
2004/PIT/6.59

2005/PHL/15.00
2005/PIT/5.18

Up until 1996, PIT had more originating passenger movements. This is about when Wolfie and company repositioned the airline as the "global carrier of choice" and built up PHL with for more international travel (Europe and Carib) and additional US domestic nonstops. The pace hasn't stopped since.

It's sobering to see that PIT has diminished to just over 5 million originating flights from a high over 9 million. Where did those 4 million passengers go?

So stop whining that PIT can be what it once was. Those days are long over. B6 and WN are giving customers there a real alternative, but I have to ask the same question that was already posed - why aren't they adding MORE flights if the market is supposedly there? It's not. That's why.

 

[ClueByFour]

The flipside to all of this (outside of the suggestion that CLT has PIT's O&D, although it might without the monopoloy hub pricing that US still employs) is that PHL is still a crappy hub and CLT lacks O&D.

US connects far too much traffic at PHL, which will ultimately kill the franchise in the Northeast--nobody who wants to get where they are going connects in PHL. CLT will never have high O&D as long as US continues to price gouge in the CLT market.

Nothing is going to change this.

As an aside, I love the PHL lovers on here:

Two years ago: "WN and B6 will never enter PIT."

Now: "Well, they have not added flights."

Both are wrong, the second in a particularly ironic way.

B6 flies what, 4x/day to NYC and BOS--markets that already have AA, DL, US, CO (NYC) and US in the BOS case. WN's frequency additions have come directly at US expense--since service inception in PIT, they've added PHX, MDW, and PHL frequencies. What does that say about US' ability to defened it's turf?

 

[Jimmy Neutron]

INCORRECT.
For the year 2005. PIT O&D was 7,096,350 and CLT was 6,763,960. Pittsburgh can only dream about having O&D twice that of CLT, just as they dream about taking traffic from their big sister in the east. Suggest that if you wish to make a point, you get your facts straight first. Also, if PIT is so viable, why hasn't WN expanded it's service since shortly after startup? It surely isn't due to lack of gates as it is at PHL. WN wants to add 40+ more daily flights out of PHL as soon as the appropriate terminal expansions are completed. Suggest the PIT cheerleaders face reality as outlined here and cease the futile effort that bashing PHL will achieve anything positive for their beloved airport:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06274/726505-147.stm

Wow look at your numbers....

PIT still has more originating passsengers with less then 1/10th the amount of flights.....What's that tell you....

 

[zethya]

The flipside to all of this (outside of the suggestion that CLT has PIT's O&D, although it might without the monopoloy hub pricing that US still employs) is that PHL is still a crappy hub and CLT lacks O&D.

US connects far too much traffic at PHL, which will ultimately kill the franchise in the Northeast--nobody who wants to get where they are going connects in PHL. CLT will never have high O&D as long as US continues to price gouge in the CLT market.

Nothing is going to change this.

As an aside, I love the PHL lovers on here:

Two years ago: "WN and B6 will never enter PIT."

Now: "Well, they have not added flights."

Both are wrong, the second in a particularly ironic way.

B6 flies what, 4x/day to NYC and BOS--markets that already have AA, DL, US, CO (NYC) and US in the BOS case. WN's frequency additions have come directly at US expense--since service inception in PIT, they've added PHX, MDW, and PHL frequencies. What does that say about US' ability to defened it's turf?

There is no "suggestion" that CLT has PIT's O&D, it's a fact that it's very close. Just saying it isn't so is without merit.

Fortunately for US's bottom line and it's shareholders, you don't make decisions regarding how much traffic is connected through PHL.

Actually I think most of the posts here are taking exception to the unrealistc assessment of PIT's potential rather than being PHL "lovers".

Making a statement that "nobody who wants to get where they are going connects in PHL" is really quite absurd and without proof. For the period 7-2004 through 6/2006, PHL annual traffic has grown from 20.62M to 27.03M and that is with US's reduction in # of flights during the last year. PIT on the other hand has grown from 13.59M to 9.87M - a significant reduction.

WN adding an additional frequency to their major connecting hub MDW, starting one flight to PHX (both shortly after startup)and additional flights to PHL (probably due to US's reduction in services), certainly does not demonstrate significant confidence in the area, particularly based on WN's expansion history at other cities. As far as US "defending it's turf", it seems obvious that US doesn't consider PIT that important to defend.

Bottom line is that I have never read a post anywhere from a PIT cheerleader that has an ounce of quantifiable justification as to why PIT is not currently rightsized and why US should risk returning to the unprofitable situation of a money loosing (PIT) airport. Pittsburgh is I believe now and has been in financial "Receivership" to the State for several years because it cannot manage it's finances. The airport continues to carry a debt in excess of $600M and consequently has among the highest landing fees in the country.
One cannot muster sympathy for a city which was foolhardy enough to build a $1+B airport on the basis of a single (2nd tier) airline's viability. PHL, on the other hand, required that USAir pay the majority of all costs for the development of it's new international terminal (A-West). The best minds in Pittsburgh cannot convince a single airline to offer a single flight on even a 757 to Europe - that just about sums it up. Even CLT has been able to capture, through subsidies, a non-stop LH flight to Munich.

 

[US1YFARE]

One cannot muster sympathy for a city which was foolhardy enough to build a $1+B airport on the basis of a single (2nd tier) airline's viability.

OUCH!

I didn't know HP served PIT