5TH week vacation coming back?

[Kev3188]

No, the "vast" majority are not satisifed with the current structure.

As for the 5th week, it's nice, but it's clearly part of the latest union avoidance push by the company. It is testament to the viability of the campaigns currently going on, not an endorsement of FIT or EIG team effectiveness (all the more so, since they can't weigh in on pay/benefit issues).

 

[Kev3188]

It is the sparring matches that keep the crowds coming to this website. Public spectacles are the only way to go.

That's a pathetic rationale, even by your standards.

 

[WorldTraveler]

That's a pathetic rationale, even by your standards.

No one is rationalizing anything, Kev.

What I have said here and what I will repeatedly say is that the strength of democracy – which this board represents – is the free exchange of ideas, even if they do not conform to the desires and ideals of some in the audience.

Sometimes those discussions are heated; the British Parliament hardly consists of each side presenting their perspective one time and seating down without any comment or emotion.

I personally learn from what is going on in the labor movement in the airline industry by reading the “sparring matches” involving other members of the board (which IS the context for my comment to which you responded) even I don’t agree with them.
A dead giveaway as to who is winning or not is to see who starts character assassinations and telling the other side that they have no right to participate in the discussion. That usually means the other side has hit a raw nerve and is onto something.

I am glad you, and Q, and Meto, and 700, and Josh and everyone else has something to say and I want that to continue… there would be no basis for conversation if everyone was on the same page.

No, the "vast" majority are not satisifed with the current structure.

As for the 5th week, it's nice, but it's clearly part of the latest union avoidance push by the company. It is testament to the viability of the campaigns currently going on, not an endorsement of FIT or EIG team effectiveness (all the more so, since they can't weigh in on pay/benefit issues).

Unless you have some sort of statistical measurement to back up your assertion, then the best measurement of employee satisfaction regarding their relationship with mgmt is the success or failure of representation campaigns. ON that basis and since they can’t have representation for a voice but not salary / compensation issues, there is nothing to indicate that the majority of DL employees are dissatisfied enough to seek representation.

I am absolutely certain that DL ticked off a lot of employees when it pulled the 5th week… but what you don’t say is that adding the 5th week is a pure cost that benefits a relatively small percentage of the total workforce that are already the most expensive workers, esp. considering they are likely the heaviest users of health care benefits. Increasing other benefits, including pay for all workers, which is exactly what DL has done over the past several years, has allowed all employees to receive some benefit than in giving much of the benefit dollars to all workers. Remember, DL and NW had the same labor cost CASM at the time of the merger; the difference was how the pieces were put together and not that one side had higher overall compensation. Further, DL's vacation accumulation scale was/is weighted to earlier addition of vacation at lower seniority than at other airlines.

Let's also not forget that we have established that PPT can be used as additional vacation on a planned basis. Let me know what other carriers offer that feature.

 

[Kev3188]

No one is rationalizing anything, Kev.

Sure you are.

You saw an opportunity to get a dig in on someone--> miscalculated--> got called out on it--> attempted to sell it as a linguisitc issue--> got called out on that--> decided to change your justification into a sort of ratings ploy.

Ridiculous.

Unless you have some sort of statistical measurement to back up your assertion, then the best measurement of employee satisfaction regarding their relationship with mgmt is the success or failure of representation campaigns.

You mean besides actually working here?

Besides talking to people across the system daily?

Besides seeing the company's reaction(s) to these campaigns?

How 'bout how close the last representation elections for IFS and the ramp were. Those do not speak to a "vast majority" of anyone being happy at all.

I am absolutely certain that DL ticked off a lot of employees when it pulled the 5th week… but what you don’t say is that adding the 5th week is a pure cost that benefits a relatively small percentage of the total workforce

Why would I? That goes without saying.

What I should add is that by restoring this benefit back to a small group of people-and let's not forget that 5 is a long way from the 6 or 7 people used to have-they sent a message to a much larger group.

"Hey we're listening."

"You don't need a union; why, just look at what we're doing for you!"

Same story with the raise... that's supposedly coming in 7 mos.

Again, both are time honored union avoidance tactics. Nothing new under the sun here...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
For someone who is as a well-versed in English as you are, then you are the last person who I would expect to say that verb tenses don’t matter.

700 used an indicative, not a conditional, verb. If he had used a conditional verb or if you had stepped in and acknowledged my point about the appropriate use of a conditional in this sense, then we could have put this issue to bed a long time ago. The simple fact is that DL COULD HAVE terminated employees based on the SARS event, which was the genesis of the discussion about FM, but did not. Q provided an article showing that there were people who thought that Richard Anderson and NW were overreaching to have used FM regarding SARS.

There was never any doubt in my mind – and I never argued the point – that non-contract employees don’t have an FM clause.

You are free to petition the owners of this board to restrict participation to active airline employees but I can absolutely assure you now that they will not agree to cut out a large portion of their audience and participants. As long as there are non-active and non-DL employees participating in this discussion, then each has as much of a right to participate as any other.
Your perspectives are valuable but they do not represent the majority of DL employees any more than any other person could represent the voices of a group of thousands or more.

Representation is a democratic process as it should be. With union support, the voting process was changed to be more democratic. Yet, the unions still did not convert the majority of DL employees to unions - and in fact, unions lost tens of thousands of former NW workers as members.

As much as you want to see the unions come up with the “gotcha” that triggers a vote resulting in representation, the vast majority of DL employees – and not just at DL – look at their jobs primarily in economic terms. DL has the ability to rewrite the economics at its own will and has consistently done what is necessary in order to keep its employees from voting for unions. THAT is the reality and DL has the financial strength to continue to do so. In fact, DL is now in the position to put financial pressure on other airlines to match what DL is offering its employees.

It is precisely because I don't believe there will be any realistic movement in the labor representation situation at DL that I encourage you to focus your attention elsewhere in the labor movement. I am not saying don't keep trying to do what you are doing, but I do believe you have better chances of succeeding elsewhere.

Ask Bob Owens about vacation for AA mechanics.

Even the best unions have not gained what they wanted in negotiations; you talk about the dozens of cities that the IAM saved at NW but you don't talk about the hundreds if not thousands of employees who were forced to move from the scores of cities that NW closed - and there was no alternative to move to another department or job in the same city.

DL has returned some of what it took earlier but, until any airline restores all that its employees lost, then what DL has returned to its employees can indeed be measured against what other carriers have returned to their employees - via their unions.

Good conversation and thanks for being faithful to the things that matter to you.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev,
For someone who is as a well-versed in English as you are, then you are the last person who I would expect to say that verb tenses don’t matter.

700 used an indicative, not a conditional, verb. If he had used a conditional verb or if you had stepped in and acknowledged my point about the appropriate use of a conditional in this sense, then we could have put this issue to bed a long time ago.

Really?

Don't you think you've gone far enough into the weeds with this?

You are free to petition the owners of this board to restrict participation to active airline employees...

That's just silly. Why would you say that?

Your perspectives are valuable but they do not represent the majority of DL employees any more than any other person could represent the voices of a group of thousands or more.

Never claimed they did.

Representation is a democratic process as it should be. With union support, the voting process was changed to be more democratic.

... Only to see the threshold required to get to an election raised.

If you truly feel it's a democratic process, then you should decry the fact was allowed to happen, and how it went down. make sure to note the key players while you're at it.

As much as you want to see the unions come up with the “gotcha” that triggers a vote resulting in representation...

Where have I specifically written that?

Who needs a "gotcha" when the company already supllies a steady stream of things that drive card signings?

 

[robbedagain]

kev is there any new info on the fa union drive... also the 5th vac week coming you said 7 months something tells me its like working in walmart they tell ya if the union is harassing you tell the mgmt and they take care of it.. something tells me here that dl is paying more n givin more just to keep unions at bay.....

 

[WorldTraveler]

the difference, Robbed, is that DL employees make above average for their industry; Wal-Mart employees do not.

Yes, DL pays more than its peers for a lot of reasons and one is that employees have a whole lot reason to seek unionization, in part because if compensation issues go to a mediator, then DL employees stand to lose by being above average.

DL's business model supports paying the wages necessary to keep unions at bay.

DL FAs have had more opportunities to vote for unions than probably any other group of employees in the history of aviation - and probably pretty near the top of American workers as a whole.

There will always be organizing campaigns and champions at DL - that is precisely how in part the company knows what issues matter to employees. Many DL employees who wouldn't ever vote for a union support these campaigns and sign cards because it does result in more pay for them... but the ultimate test is at the ballot box.

The majority of DL employees get enough of what they want just by threats although the unions spend lots of money on organizing campaigns and get no revenue for it. It is a dynamic that has existed at DL for years and isn't showing any signs of changing.

Almost five years into the DL-NW merger, there have been no further votes after the initial round so there really is not way to know you happy or unhappy DL employees are... but no vote has taken place and none is scheduled which means the last vote still stands - and none of the major workgroups chose unions thru the process that was defined at that time - and is still in effect, unless I am wrong.

Kev,
can you refresh me about the changes both ways that took place w/ the representation processes? And more specifically what you would do to make further changes today that would be even more fair.

 

[Kev3188]

kev is there any new info on the fa union drive... also the 5th vac week coming you said 7 months something tells me its like working in walmart they tell ya if the union is harassing you tell the mgmt and they take care of it.. something tells me here that dl is paying more n givin more just to keep unions at bay.....

Trust your instincts, amigo; that's exactly what's happening.

Those that can still critically think see it for exactly what it is.

Those that prefer to have others do their thinking for them still think it's 'cause we're "family."

 

[700UW]

WT,

Mediation in the airlines in labor talks is when the mediator facilitates the talks to bring the sides together.

He or She doesnt negotiate nor do they set wages, benefits and working conditions.

You dont even know how the process works yet you think you know it all and post.

And where did the DL DFW Hub employees go when they shut down the DFW Hub and Hangar?

Where did the DL employees go when they shut the MCO hub down?

Where did they go when they reduced CVG?

Where are the 250 MEM workers going?

Buyouts not enough to prevent layoffs at Delta

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2011/09/delta-lay-offs/546536/1

Delta unit shuts doors, leaving 900 ground workers at Metro Airport up in the air

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20121008/FREE/121009914/delta-unit-shuts-doors-leaving-900-ground-workers-at-metro-airport-up-#

Delta to lay off 200 office staff

http://www.upi.com/Business_News/2011/09/08/Delta-to-lay-off-200-office-staff/UPI-94861315505374/

Delta to Shut Down Comair

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443477104577552771050498882.html

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=27&ved=0CEwQFjAGOBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.nccommerce.com%2Feclipsfiles%2F12167.pdf&ei=UXw4UrqUApKI9AT1wYEo&usg=AFQjCNHGMlWrdI_HrmeDCLZMAGNoNrxxLg&sig2=xAnVbXE4DfI44XRTCJk6oQ&bvm=bv.52164340,d.eWU&cad=rja

Delta further reduces operations at Cincinnati hub; 840 face layoffs

http://www.cleveland.com/business/index.ssf/2010/03/delta_further_reduces_operatio.html

Delta Airlines closing SeaTac call center

http://seattletimes.com/html/businesstechnology/2018272586_deltalayoffs24.html

 

[WorldTraveler]

I understand the concept of mediation... but there has to be an impasse in order for mediation to occur.

DL people have chosen not to even start the process of representation which they fully understand is what it takes in order for their to be a mediation process.

DL people are happy with the process that exists at the company and if they aren't the law allows them to seek representation. Tens of thousands of employees in over a half dozen of the largest workgroups voted after the merger to decide whether they wanted to be represented or not.

I fully respect that there are people at DL who don't like the way things work there. But there is a democratic process, flawed as it may be, that is required in order for representation to take place. The majority of DL employees in the largest work groups chose not to be represented - and that included over 30K pmNW employees.
There have been no votes scheduled even though representation campaigns continue; they have been a staple of life at DL for years. Let's not forget that DL also merged with WA which was predominantly unionized, hired over 6500 Pan Am employees, most of which were unionized, and has hired thousands of employees from other carriers, including Eastern. There is a minority of DL's workforce who were originally hired by DL. There are more than enough people who were represented by unions in the past that know first hand exactly how representation works - and yet the majority of DL employees have not chosen to seek representation.

Your list of DL HR related events is great... but they only have any context when put alongside events that have happened at other airlines. You seem deathly afraid to put the comparisons of other airlines along side what happens and has happened at DL, because if you did, you would see that DL has been a more stable place to work than any other legacy carrier.
And no other carrier is adding as many jobs and improving pay and benefits as well as reducing its outsourcing to the extent that DL is doing.

Whether you put the other column up there for discussion on the board, DL employees do know it.

It is precisely because I believe in the same accountability that some in the labor movement say they expect from labor they I do and will continue to ensure that both sides of the equation are presented.

Ultimately, it is DL people who will choose. So far, they haven't indicated they want anything to change.

 

[700UW]

Wrong again.

If there is an impasse, then the NMB declares a 30 day cooling off period then the union is free to strike and the company is free to impose a new CBA. For example built into the IAM M&R CBA stated if no agreement was reached within 12 months, the talks would then be conducted by the NMB and a mediator used to facilitate an agreement.

The NMB mediation is part of the Railway Labor Act Section 6 negotiations, the mediator is called in to facilitate talks and either reach an agreement or start the process leading up to a strike.

Not afraid to post anything about any other airline, you claim DL is God and the Universe and I showed you they did the same thing, and at least with a CBA their is a process the company and union have to follow.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I really do get the process, thank you..... I have seen it play out at other carriers. The terminology I used is not correct but the concept remains that DL employees have chosen not to walk down the labor road. Remember, the majority of DL employees don't have FM or mediation or any of the rest of it... they just get pay raises while other airline employees are waiting around for years..... how are those processes working at US to get increased pay in the pockets of the employees? What is happening with labor elsewhere in the industry is the best tool that DL mgmt. needs to keep DL employees from further unionization.

No, DL is not God. DL is a very well-run airline that happens to succeed at what it does and still maintains its direct labor-mgmt relationship for the majority of its employees in an industry where representation is the norm.

DL has been greatly strengthened by what NW has brought to DL. But DL people, the vast majority of whom were not hired directly by DL, have chosen not to pursue the unionized environment that exists at other airlines.

Specific to the discussion, DL employees voiced their desire to see vacation beyond the 4th week added back and DL has listened. With the PPT that DL employees already can use for vacation time on a planned basis, DL employees really have 7 days more vacation than is advertised.

I haven't seen a list of other airline employees that have PPT which for employees who don't exceed 7 sick days per year is additional vacation time - or pay - depending on employee choice.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

The terminology I used is not correct...

Well that was not so difficult. It took a few pages of deltaspeak wiki to get here, but alas.

Congratulations WT.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Well that was not so difficult. It took a few pages of deltaspeak wiki to get here, but alas.

Congratulations WT.

thanks. I have done it before. And I'll do it again. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong when I actually am.

Not sure I have received an acknowledgement from others who have been wrong... but perhaps you can help me find it if I missed it.