5TH week vacation coming back?

[WorldTraveler]

you also have been determined to see things the way you thought they were regardless of whether that was reality or not.

That explains a great deal of why you see the situation at DL far differently than the majority of your peers.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

How are the IAM cocktail party meet and greets working out? You condemn DL for holding them but I'm sure you fine and dandy with the IAM squandering existing members' dues for those events.

Josh

You do realize that all of the union activities are public record. Feel free to publish the "cocktail party" meet and greet info.

I am not a fan of the IAMAW at all. You are either clueless as to how unions really operate financially, or you are simply being obtuse. I think the latter is true.

 

[TDR1502C]

you also have been determined to see things the way you thought they were regardless of whether that was reality or not.

That explains a great deal of why you see the situation at DL far differently than the majority of your peers.

Translates as "Kev, you can't believe your lying eyes."

 

[WorldTraveler]

beyond the scratched googles and low hanging hat, I don't have any reason to believe there is anything wrong w/ Kev's vision.

I do know that the vast majority of DL employees do not see the world the way Kevin does, including regarding the issues which he thinks should result in voting in a union but the majority of his peers don't.

he never answered the question about how many cards is needed to call for an election?

If it is really 50%, which is the same number as to elect, then it is all the more doubtful that an election will ever come.

 

[Kev3188]

Yep, 50%. Your former employer played a role in that change, so you can be proud.

Difficult? You bet. Like I said earlier, nothing of value comes easy. Doubtful? I doubt it.

My vision is clearer than ever, and I can "see" a call for an election on the property w/in the next few months.

 

[blue collar]

Kev- good luck to you guys n gals.

I think WT saying a union will 'never' happen is one of the first definitive, without qualifiers prognostications of his.

 

[WorldTraveler]

first, it is nice to be having an earthbound discussion instead of based on what took place over the past couple days. thanks for helping leave all of that nastiness (coming from both sides) in the rear view mirror.


I'm proud when the democratic process works. The fact that a call for elections has the same standard as winning one does raise the bar, but let's be honest that unions have used the relatively low threshold to call for elections every couple of years only to repeatedly find out that they couldn't get enough support to win.

I have absolutely no problem if DL employees choose to be represented by a union if that is what they think will yield the greatest return.

The simple fact is that DL has given its employees more pay raises and more profit sharing at faster rates than any union has ever provided.
As much as you believe that QOL issues will make a difference, the difference between what DL employees are making and gaining and what other airlines are providing their union-represented employees is providing is so great that no person who is the least bit motivated by money would walk away from the DL system.
And for those who are motivated by principle and not money, why do you work for a paycheck and not in a volunteer capacity where you can do what you want to do?
There is absolutely no incentive for DL to pay above average wages if it had a represented environment across the board and you need only look at history in the airline industry to see that the norm among airlines is for unions to fight just to get to average pay with its peers under a represented environment.

Sure, WN is an exception but they are having to reign in the rapid paid raises and high pay that have marked employment with them. And they are also changing their business model to compete much more aggressively in high-value business markets.... which explains why maximizing the revenue they can get out of Love Field matters to them so much.

It also explains why the financial strengths that DL has as a company are no different from what has propelled WN to growth - an efficient, cooperative workforce tied to mgmt.'s ability to find and benefit from the best revenue in the industry.
With a 10% cost advantage over UA mainline and 6% over AA and DL gaining more and more corporate revenue from those two as DL pushes into more and more key industry markets around the world, DL employees are better positioned than ever to cement their gains and move them even further forward.
Choosing a CBA that by nature is built around comparisons with peers is the worse thing that DL employees want as DL cements its position in Asia outside Japan, on the west coast, in the southwest of the US, on the east coast corridor, Latin America, and key business markets such as LHR in Europe.

DL people stand to gain from DL's growth and increased revenues just as they have with the profit sharing that is now paying 20% for every dollar of profit the company makes for the rest of the year, and paid at that level for pay of the Sept. quarter.

Rational DL employees are not going to risk losing that which is why I can say with certainty that DL is more certain of its ability to eliminate the threat of unionization than ever before.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev- good luck to you guys n gals.

I think WT saying a union will 'never' happen is one of the first definitive, without qualifiers prognostications of his.

 
 
Thanks!   🙂
 

the difference between what DL employees are making and gaining and what other airlines are providing their union-represented employees is

 
...And like I tell you every time you trot this out, and any CBA on the DL property will reflect the wishes of DL employees. Not UA, not US, Not AA...
 
 
 

There is absolutely no incentive for DL to pay above average wages if it had a represented environment across the board and you need only look at history in the airline industry to see that the norm among airlines is for unions to fight just to get to average pay with its peers under a represented environment.

 
Our pay is based on "industry standard" now. 


 
 
Choosing a CBA that by nature is built around comparisons with peers is the worse thing that DL employees want[/QUOTE] 
See above. You repeating this meme won't make it true.
 
 

DL people stand to gain from DL's growth and increased revenues...

 
...And they deserve to have those gains come in a legally binding agreement.
 
 

Rational DL employees are not going to risk losing that which is why I can say with certainty that DL is more certain of its ability to eliminate the threat of unionization than ever before.

 
What's at risk? We have nothing right now, except what the company chooses to give us. 
 
The fear of loss strategy is a popular union busting tactic. Yet you use it over and over. Weird that someone claims on one hand to be a fan of democracy, and on the other champions suppressing the same crowd. 

 

[737823]

Kev,
If large numbers of your peers believed there was value in having a CBA why have they gone this long without one? Look over at United even the with the "protection" the IAM can supposedly offer they are decimating the system down to seven stations, bringing on unlimited part time, unlimited split shifts, and even now willing to lower wages and work rules to compete with the ZWs/Swissports/etc of the industry. You have remarked before that the TWU ATD is a hindrance in organizing efforts at DL, its for DL workers to see the political baggage the unions bring into the workplace and empty promises they fail to deliver on.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Kev,
If large numbers of your peers believed there was value in having a CBA why have they gone this long without one?

First you need representation. We haven't had a chance to vote on that yet.

The TWU ATD at AA is a hinderance to working class America.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL pay and benefits, including the number of cities where DL employees can work is well above industry standard levels. Other DL employees do very much know their pay and benefits are not industry standard and that is why they will not risk losing the advantage over their peers that they do have in order to have a union represent them.

All of the former NW represented workgroups did have a chance to vote as part of the merger integration process. No major workgroup chose the representation option.

This is the best time for DL people to ride the coattails of a company that is hitting on all cylinders and is extraordinarily well-positioned to grow its business over the next couple years. UA is trying desperately trying to figure out how to make the merger they consummated work w/o completing breaking the bank and so far their costs are so high compared to DL's that they will be a significant target for DL's sales staff for years to come. AA and US independently or separately are both higher cost airlines and both have significant strategic disadvantages to DL. WN has chosen to reduce its competition directly with DL as I predicted in order to focus on weaker targets.
The company will gain from all of this. DL employees are not about to walk away from the best run of salary increases and profit sharing that the airline industry has ever seen.

Yes, I have said some pretty definite things during my internet career but I am as certain as this one as anything I have ever said.


BTW, Kev, happy 10th forums BD... a few weeks late but it's still the same month!

 

[Kev3188]

DL employees are not about to walk away from the best run of salary increases and profit sharing that the airline industry has ever seen.

Who says they have to? 

 

[737823]

DL could refuse to include that in the CBA. Just like when the PM-NW FAs were b!tching about their PM-DL counterparts getting profit sharing and higher base rates and filed suit and got laughed away by the judge. CBAs are negotiated as a comprehensive package, you can't cherry pick articles and items. But great to see more cash from AFA-CWA coffers squandered and the union employees look like fools.

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL employees are not about to walk away from the best run of salary increases and profit sharing that the airline industry has ever seen.

Who says they have to?

because the notion that unions would be added to DL and the employees would continue to accrue increased pay is not reality.

You yourself have frequently said that DL keeps handing out pay rates to keep the unions out. If the unions are in, not only is the incentive to keep the pay raises and profit sharing growing are eliminated, but unions would be fighting just to get industry average - which is a continually dropping line.

You might think that DL is paying only average but your peers are more than capable of knowing they are not.

Tell me what airline will be passing our profit sharing checks that will exceed $5000 for the "average DL employee" (if it is possible to say one exists) come next Valentine's Day.

Not only is that real money but it is also something that no other airline is doing - and DL is under no obligation to continue to offer that kind of benefit under a CBA.

DL employees are simply not going to walk away from the gravy train in order to take a chance with unions that are coming nowhere close to offering DL employees the pay and benefits that DL is offering.
they just won't, Kev.

And I would dare say you haven't and won't walk away from you profit sharing check in the name of putting a union in place.

 

[Kev3188]

DL could refuse to include that in the CBA.

 
 
 
What makes you think they would?

[/QUOTE] 
 

because the notion that unions would be added to DL and the employees would continue to accrue increased pay is not reality.
 
Says who? You don't honestly think that there would be no step increases, do you? C'mon.



 
 

Tell me what airline will be passing our profit sharing checks that will exceed $5000 for the "average DL employee" (if it is possible to say one exists) come next Valentine's Day.

 
The same one that can take that all away at any time, for any reason.
 
 
Not only is that real money but it is also something that no other airline is doing - and DL is under no obligation to continue to offer that kind of benefit under a CBA.

 
Yeah, because DL isn't any other airline. Just like I keep saying.  Even trash & donkeys recognize that, which is why I keep correcting you when you insist on looking at what happens at other carriers as a definite to occur here. 
 
And let's remind everyone that under at will employment, DL isn't obligated to offer any kind of benefit now.
 
 

DL employees are simply not going to walk away from the gravy train in order to take a chance with unions that are coming nowhere close to offering DL employees the pay and benefits that DL is offering.
they just won't, Kev.

 
Who says they have to walk away from anything? What exactly do they have now that's not "at risk?" 
 
 

And I would dare say you haven't and won't walk away from you profit sharing check in the name of putting a union in place.

 
Don't be an jackass. I-and every other "actual DL employee"- will have earned whatever we have coming on Valentine's Day. 
 
If the question was, would you swap your check for representation, then the answer would be "in a NY minute."