A Bad Experiment

[RDU Jetblast]

In my opinion, any industry crucial to the US economy should be regulated.

Greed will always creep in and screw hundreds of citizens.

 

[flyhigh]

JetBlast, your theory might have some unintended consequences though. Regulation typically hurts competition and increases prices. While most of you probably think that's exactly the point, consider the end result. If prices raise too much demand will shrink. If there is less demand, there are less people getting places for business & pleasure. If people travel less and subsequently spend less as tourists and out of town buiness people, aren't you actually hurting the overall economy? Is it more important to have profitable airlines or profitable Disneyworlds???

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

Is it more important to have profitable airlines or profitable Disneyworlds???

If done correctly you can have both.

There is a problem right now with the way airlines are operated/run.

There needs to be something done, and soon. With everything from outsourced maintenance to executive greed a bubble has been inflating and it will burst eventually.

I started this thread for positive feedback and ideas. If my suggestion of re-regulating the airlines is not valid then what should be done?

 

[Cosworth]

While we are regulating the airlines, are we also going to regulate labor? What's good for the goose is good for the gander is it not? The government can determine what a fair salary is for you and that will be that. That's OK with you right?

The less government does the less they screw up. Show me a government program that is run half way efficiently. Let government set safety standards. lt the airlines run them selves. The companies who plan for the future will survive. The ones who cannot see past tomorrow, the ones who have greedy management/Unions/employees will fail. That is how it should be.

What happens if Uncle Sam looks at SWA as their bench mark? Will AA or UAL be able to live by those standards? If Uncle Sam choose AA as the standard, why should SWA have to raise their prices or alter their business plan to save you?

I would suggest you look for aback up plan. If you are hanging your hat on regulation, I get the feeling you will be sorely disappointed.

 

[flyhigh]

As I stated Ken, I think the alternative is to set tougher standards for entry. There is WAY too much focus to get low fares for everyone. People need to realize that flying 500 mph in a thin metal tube costs money. Every yahoo who can get $180 million together and some planes from Airbus shouldn't be let in. They're letting the investment community be the sole dictator of business plans since it's their money to lose. Unfortunately, the marketplace has a touch time covering for failure because it is already too stressed. Look at what it took to get the stranded masses of Aloha back to their homes, etc. There needs to be some way of saying that your plan of getting 100 aircraft in five years so you can IPO is too much.

 

[Bob Owens]

Is your answer to everything "the government should ..." Given the current state of the nation, economy, SS, Medicare .. and everything else they have their hands in you really think they can fix your airline? I have a bridge to sell you.

The problem is that our government is in the hands of corporations. While we supposedly have a Democracy corporate campaign contributions carry influence way beyond our election day ballot when it comes to determining policy and legislation.

One of the things that shocked me when I went to China was the fact that I did not sense the aura of repressiveness that I thought I would(granted I didnt go to Nepal but lets not forget how our government reacted when 13 states wanted to leave). Did I just not see the signs or have I simply grown used to it as our society has changed? Sure we have the ability to speak more freely here buts thats only because those in control do not fear losing control. Here we are told we have all these rights, which we think we do, unless someone with more power and money feels like violating them, then we dont have them. In China its more clear cut, they are more upfront, they simply tell you that the government will deteremine when and where you have rights. The big lie in China is that its "The PEOPLES government" which is pretty much the same lie as here(of the people, by the people, for the people). While I'm certainly an American and wish to remain one the fact is that the more I travel abroad the more I realize that we are no longer as exceptional as we thought we once were. I attribute our declining democratic exceptionalism to the corporatization of our government, as Eisenhower warned us 50 years ago-"beware of the military industrial complex", these institutions have no particular interest in Democracy and with each passing day they use their campaign contributions to make our ballots more and more irrelevant.

 

[Bob Owens]

The idea of re-regulating the airlines is terrible from so many perspectives. If you tried to, think about how you would do it. You'd have to tell AA, UA, CO, DL, NW, AS, and many others that all the money they've invested in their hubs has been wasted as your now going to be point to point operators.

You mean like AA's hubs in SJU, RDU and Nashville?

Why would the hub and spoke system have to be eliminated in a regulated industry?

I think the larger problem is that there is too much regulation in some areas and not enough in others. Anybody with a little bit of money by airline standards can open shop. There should be more rigor behind the start-up evaluation.

I think the "competition" from a lot of these little startup carriers is overstated. EOS didnt do as much damage to AA as AA did to EOS.

 

[Bob Owens]

As an example, UAL wasn't allowed to fail for one simple reason; perhaps this type of agreement is with another bank also but - GE Capital bailed Tilton out in exchange for being a major provider of engine maintenance (CF-6, CFM-56). Citi probably got a chunk of that somewhere.

Large banks keep bailing out the airlines because they already have more than enough invested. There's plenty of money there to strip away (the damned execs have figured that out), but the banks want their "due" also. Until the banking industry is sidelined, there's no hope of an airline failing, except for the small and weak perhaps.

Doesnt GE Capital also own and lease a lot of aircraft ? These banks keep bailing out the airlines because as long as the airlines fly they are making money through leases, loans etc.

AMr generates around $22,000,000,000 a year, around $60 million a day, only around $5 billion (or $13million a day) gets spilt between the 85000 people who make it happen, that leaves $17 billion for the banks to pick though. The banks are making a killing off the airlines regrdless of how much the airlines claim to be losing.

 

[Cosworth]

The problem is that our government is in the hands of corporations. While we supposedly have a Democracy corporate campaign contributions carry influence way beyond our election day ballot when it comes to determining policy and legislation.

Exactly so again I ask, why on earth would you want more government involvement? They pretty much screw up everything they touch.

One of the things that shocked me when I went to China was the fact that I did not sense the aura of repressiveness that I thought I would(granted I didnt go to Nepal but lets not forget how our government reacted when 13 states wanted to leave). Did I just not see the signs or have I simply grown used to it as our society has changed?

Oh come on. Your credibility on this board seem strained enough as it is for you to be making statements such as this (I've been lurking here for quite some time). Wile you were in China, did you try and access this web site? Had you tried you would have more than likely found that you were banned. Did you try and go out and burn a Chinese flag, speak out against the Chinese government, did you visit Tiananmen square? Did you check into the requirements for a citizen to run for office?

I'll be one of the last to say that the USA is the land of the free and the brave. I stopped saying the pledge because I do not feel it is true BUT this country for all it's flaws and problems is night and day from China. Given that you do not have the ability to see the difference between the two leads me to question your judgment.

I have never been to China but I have been too East Germany several times. I knew exactly where I was and what I could and could not do if I wanted to ever see the West again. If you went to China and did not feel a sense of repression and control, you are one strange bird.

 

[ual777fan]

As I stated Ken, I think the alternative is to set tougher standards for entry. There is WAY too much focus to get low fares for everyone. People need to realize that flying 500 mph in a thin metal tube costs money. Every yahoo who can get $180 million together and some planes from Airbus shouldn't be let in. They're letting the investment community be the sole dictator of business plans since it's their money to lose. Unfortunately, the marketplace has a touch time covering for failure because it is already too stressed. Look at what it took to get the stranded masses of Aloha back to their homes, etc. There needs to be some way of saying that your plan of getting 100 aircraft in five years so you can IPO is too much.

They should have to submit a 5 year business plan for approval of a flight license for one. This application should be examined by the GAO (or an equivalent Government office) that would determine the longer term viability of this new airline.

 

[Bob Owens]

Oh come on. Your credibility on this board seem strained enough as it is for you to be making statements such as this (I've been lurking here for quite some time). Wile you were in China, did you try and access this web site? Had you tried you would have more than likely found that you were banned. Did you try and go out and burn a Chinese flag, speak out against the Chinese government, did you visit Tiananmen square? Did you check into the requirements for a citizen to run for office?

No, but think it is accessible since its not political.

Yes I visited Tienamen Square.No I didnt try to burn a flag, but I may remind you that many prominant politicians here are trying to ban that along with free speach(ever heard of the anti sedition act and the patriot act?)

I did discuss it and from what I recall pretty much anyone can run for office, you do not have to be a member of the Communist Party I was told-however your chances of getting a high position without being affiliated with the Communist party are slim-similar in a way to the chances of someone not bel;onging to the Republicratic Party here.

I'll be one of the last to say that the USA is the land of the free and the brave. I stopped saying the pledge because I do not feel it is true BUT this country for all it's flaws and problems is night and day from China. Given that you do not have the ability to see the difference between the two leads me to question your judgment.

Well I expected Night and day, but thats not what I felt or saw, I saw more similarities than differences.

I have never been to China but I have been too East Germany several times. I knew exactly where I was and what I could and could not do if I wanted to ever see the West again. If you went to China and did not feel a sense of repression and control, you are one strange bird.

Well if you were in East Germany at least two decades ago, it was during the final stages of the Cold War and you were a citizen of their enemy. I was in China as a citizen from their biggest trading partner, if you dont see the difference then you are a strange bird. Most of the people were very friendly, they seemed to be happy, not what I expected. One would not expect oppressed people to be so outwardly friendly.

One of the expats that my brother knew got drunk and smacked a Chinese police officer, she was not beaten or found dead in a jail cell, she was told that she was no longer welcome, her Visa was revoked and she was sent home. Locals may be treated differently but my point is they are gaining more and more freedom while our freedoms are being restricted. I find this unacceptable. I dont want us to be like China but I dont like the direction that we are heading either, what struck me was that it didnt seem nearly as bad as what 46 years of programming had led me to expect. I felt more in danger looking down the barrel of a jittery Brittish soldiers machine gun at a night time roadblock in Northern Ireland than I did in China.

 

[Ken MacTiernan]

It seems as if the Machinists are calling for re-regulation. I wonder what the afl-cio thinks about this bad experiment.

 

[DallasConehead]

The fall of the Soviet Union was assisted by the loss of blood and treasure in Afghanistan. The loss of this resulted in LESS government control of the industries. As a result, those in key positions in the industries had the opportunity to rob these industries blind of all capital and liquid assets. In the end there were no monies left with which to pay the salaries of the workers. With no salaries the working people were forced to grow their own food, ride public transportation, forgo family niceties, start over. Sound familiar? Do we ever learn anything from history? Recent history at that. I think not.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Folks this is the same government that brought us the TSA. Do we really want these idiots in charge of where we travel and how much we pay to get there?