A response to NW "outsourcing" of F/A's

[BABABOOY]

The following is from the Freedom Force people.
another view.....





Subj: Some interesting FACTS on the Outsourcing Issue


The following is some interesting information around afa's claim that without afa's protection, Ricard Anderson will outsource our intl flying. Read and see what you think.


From Danny Campbell:

"Richard Anderson, who I worked with closely when I was the President of the NWA FA union, has a long history of seeking to outsource U.S. aviation jobs -- including our Flight Attendant positions. He, and the executives he is close to, attempted to outsource 75% of our international flights with foreign nations hired in China, Eastern Europe and India. In fact, they still have these employees trained and ready to step onboard Delta aircraft if they can ensure that you don't join AFA and our NWA contract is dis-solved.

The sum total of job reductions it would have caused at NWA would have been 35-40% of our seniority list. At a combined NWA-DAL carrier, it could be as many as 9,000 jobs."


READ THE FACTS:

Richard Anderson left NWA in October of 2004. Negotiations on the NWA flight attendant collective bargaining agreement did not begin until December of 2004. At that time, NWA sought $195 million in concessions....which included cost savings related to outsourcing to foreign nationals. PFAA (NWA F/As' union at that time) reported NWA wanted to outsource 75% of INTL flying, which was approximately 35-40% of of the total flying. NWA claimed that they needed to hire foreign nationals for their language skills as at that time 60 percent of Northwest's Pacific passengers originated from Asia, yet fewer than 5 percent of Northwest's flight attendants spoke any Asian language. The bargaining began.

PFAA had to make immense concessions in order to secure their INTL flying and limit outsourcing to foreign nationals and regionals. After voting down 2 tentative agreements, flight attendants prepared to strike in August of 2005. NWA, in response, began training replacement flight attendants in case the strike went through. PFAA challeged NWA's action in court and the court ruled that NWA could continue hiring and training replacement F/As.

As only a portion of NWA's structure was made up of INTL routes, and NWA was trying to avoid cancelling flights due to a strike, it stands to reason that some but certainly not all the replacements were foreign nationals because foreign nationals are prohibited from flying within the US.

NWA F/As did not strike. AFA became NWA F/As' union in July 2006.

Once the concessionary contract was ratified, there would have been no reason for Northwest to maintain and train replacement flight attendants, as the contract was in place at least through the end of 2011 (and likely well beyond that during negotiations for a new contract). The contract still allows Northwest to use foreign nationals as flight attendants, which they do, but maintaining thousands of additional trained replacement employees during the term of a contract would be very expensive and would be of absolutely no use to the company.

 

[Danny Campbell]

Whoever wrote that has his/her facts ALL WRONG...

Let me point some of the errors in it...

***Richard Anderson left NWA in October of 2004. Negotiations on the NWA flight attendant collective bargaining agreement did not begin until December of 2004.

By the time Richard Anderson left NWA, he had "already succeeded" with the outsourcing of our mechanics jobs. Anybody with experience in negotiations knows that the proposals are developed (usually years) ahead of the time that negotiations begin. In fact, Richard Anderson (along with his strategic proposals) tried to get us (the NWA FAs) to open our contract for negotiations in 2002, 2003, and again in 2004. The notion that he had nothing to do with these issues is dishonest.

***At that time (2005), NWA sought $195 million in concessions....which included cost savings related to outsourcing to foreign nationals.

Wrong. Initially, NWA was only seeking 143 million. The 195milliion came later.

***After voting down 2 tentative agreements, flight attendants prepared to strike in August of 2005. NWA, in response, began training replacement flight attendants in case the strike went through. PFAA challeged NWA's action in court and the court ruled that NWA could continue hiring and training replacement F/As.

TOTALLY WRONG. NWA began hiring replacement FAs (including these Foreign Nationals) in early 2005 -- MORE THAN A YEAR BEFORE WE REJECTED THE TWO TENTATIVE AGREEMENTS. In other words, NWA was ready to replace us before any bankruptcy negotiations even began. It is a WELL DOCUMENTED FACT that our two rejected Tentative Agreements were in 2006 (more than a year AFTER NWA hired these foreign workers).

***As only a portion of NWA's structure was made up of INTL routes, and NWA was trying to avoid cancelling flights due to a strike, it stands to reason that some but certainly not all the replacements were foreign nationals because foreign nationals are prohibited from flying within the US.

Wrong again. NWA had every intent on flying these foreign flight attendants INTO and OUT OF the U.S. Their written proposals were specifically written to replace 75 % of us on international flights on a PERMANENT BASIS. These were not merely strike replacements that NWA felt they "had" to hire. Whoever is spinning this is lying to you.

***Once the concessionary contract was ratified, there would have been no reason for Northwest to maintain and train replacement flight attendants, as the contract was in place at least through the end of 2011.

Unless Richard Anderson wanted to use them to replace DELTA AND NWA FAs on future flights.

***The contract still allows Northwest to use foreign nationals as flight attendants, which they do, but maintaining thousands of additional trained replacement employees during the term of a contract would be very expensive and would be of absolutely no use to the company.

Unless Richard Anderson wanted to use them to replace DELTA AND NWA FAs on future flights. And, if he can first defeat any legal union representation that would stand in the way.

Danny

 

[Wings]

Whoever wrote the above piece on the NWA FA negotiations, Richard Anderson's participation, or the outsourcing of our jobs is way off base (as Danny has pointed out). Where did you dig this up? We lived through the mess starting in 2002 - and if it wasn't for our union representation - NWA would have replaced us just as they did our mechanics. No doubt about it.

Oil is now over $130/barrel. Management already cut wages, work rules, and benefits to the bone during bankruptcy. Where do you think they are now going to find additional cost savings with no union to stop them?

If you want to keep trying to convince yourselves that the "new" Delta would never outsource FA positions because the company cares so much about all of you (in order to justify a NO UNION vote) .... be my guest.

At this point, I pray that this merger is called off because you people "can't see the forest for the trees". And refusing to let go of the past and face present-day reality will destroy the FA profession forever in our country.

Still think we are outright lying or embellishing the truth at every turn? When the outsourcing starts at the non-union Delta; don't say we didn't warn you!

 

[bagboy]

***After voting down 2 tentative agreements, flight attendants prepared to strike in August of 2005. NWA, in response, began training replacement flight attendants in case the strike went through. PFAA challeged NWA's action in court and the court ruled that NWA could continue hiring and training replacement F/As.

TOTALLY WRONG. NWA began hiring replacement FAs (including these Foreign Nationals) in early 2005 -- MORE THAN A YEAR BEFORE WE REJECTED THE TWO TENTATIVE AGREEMENTS. In other words, NWA was ready to replace us before any bankruptcy negotiations even began. It is a WELL DOCUMENTED FACT that our two rejected Tentative Agreements were in 2006 (more than a year AFTER NWA hired these foreign workers).
Danny

We had lists of replacement F/A in our station pre-AMFA strike, , should any of the PFAA choose to sympathize with the tech strike. Management left it out to intimidate the masses should we get the idea of supporting the AMFA. I witnessed classes of F/A in DTW, getting ready for a possible strike. Rich and his bunch were architects behind the union busting plans at NWA.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Whoever wrote the above piece on the NWA FA negotiations, Richard Anderson's participation, or the outsourcing of our jobs is way off base (as Danny has pointed out). Where did you dig this up?

They call themselves the "Freedom Force." They were around during the last campaign a few years ago.
They were actually sighted in AFAs complaint of interference last time as it is believed some of the members to be Mgt. They are very often incorrect in what they write...which are usually half-truths. They depend on the apathy and sheep-like quality of many DL FAs to read what they write and not question it. One of their current vocal members hasn't even been with the company a year. As are several of the newly-hired FAs, he was a disgruntled member of AFA at his previous place of employment (which I think was United). This (being against AFA) may have been a trend they looked for these past few months when interviewing candidates from other (union-represented) airlines. The company and the Freedom Force seem to be pushing these new FAs out front in their anti-union campaign.

 

[BABABOOY]

......and isn't it good to get all sides out there ?....
If only Delta leaders would have agreed to a "Town Hall" /Debate type meeting with
the AFA to be broadcast on the net.

 

[Danny Campbell]

Bababooy:

You are so right about that....in fact, the Delta-AFA activists invited the Freedom Force to do just that (have a civil and professional debate during a live 'webcast' event). The Freedom Force declined that invitation, which tells me that they can't stand at the front of the stage and defend the information that management feeds them.

Danny

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

......and isn't it good to get all sides out there ?....
If only Delta leaders would have agreed to a "Town Hall" /Debate type meeting with
the AFA to be broadcast on the net.

Agreed. Not just Delta leaders but the Freedom Force as well. They were invited but turned it down.
The question I would have liked answered is:
"If Delta says we we will lose so much by joining AFA, why are they fighting it so hard? I mean, if the FAs lose flexibility, perhaps a dollar or so in hourly flt. pay(on par with the AFA airlines they light to site in their graphs), WHY fight that? The company obviously would be on the winning side of those equations, no?"

 

[dapoes]

Whoever wrote that has his/her facts ALL WRONG...

Let me point some of the errors in it...

And of course the AFA would never admit to any false statements... :blink:

 

[BABABOOY]

And of course the AFA would never admit to any false statements... :blink:

Agreed dapoes,
However, thats why we need an OPEN and honest debate with both sides. I disagree though with meeting with the "Freedom Force". They represent a small group of F/A's. We need Management
and the AFA to sit down.
Just think of the trees and money it would have saved BOTH sides. I don't know if
it would have cut down on the phone calls though ;-)

 

[1Conehead]

We had lists of replacement F/A in our station pre-AMFA strike, , should any of the PFAA choose to sympathize with the tech strike. Management left it out to intimidate the masses should we get the idea of supporting the AMFA. I witnessed classes of F/A in DTW, getting ready for a possible strike. Rich and his bunch were architects behind the union busting plans at NWA.

Is this why you and/or your group ,Did not support the AMTs.
Thanks for the help, Maybe we can return the favor sometime.
I got mine to heck with you.

 

[dapoes]

Agreed dapoes,
However, thats why we need an OPEN and honest debate with both sides. I disagree though with meeting with the "Freedom Force". They represent a small group of F/A's. We need Management
and the AFA to sit down.
Just think of the trees and money it would have saved BOTH sides. I don't know if
it would have cut down on the phone calls though ;-)

Somehow I would never see that happening with any company. Ever. Companies only sit down with unions once they are elected/voted in etc. Because they have to. To have that happen prior to an election would be nothing but a mudslinging event and acheive nothing.

 

[Kev3188]

Is this why you and/or your group ,Did not support the AMTs.
Thanks for the help, Maybe we can return the favor sometime.
I got mine to heck with you.

I think you missed the point?

NWA was quite busy hiring replacement F/A's (foreign & domestic as well as management folks conscripted from other departments ) at the same time they were hiring replacement AMT's. I had a handful of "training flights" come through my city during that summer.

Bagboy's list would have come into play if/when either A) The flight attendants went out on strike on their own or B ) They walked out in sympathy for the AMFA. The folks in his city could cross reference it with a crew list to see if the F/A's working the trip were "real" F/A's or replacement ones.

Sounds to me like they were preparing to be supportive of their union brothers & sisters at PFAA (now AFA), a favor I would gladly accept any day.

 

[Kev3188]

To have that happen prior to an election would be nothing but a mudslinging event and acheive nothing.

.... Except maybe get some of the company's misinformation refuted, get good info from both sides out to the people so they could make an educated choice, etc., etc.

Perhaps you're against the sort of open discourse because it thwarts a personal agenda of yours?

 

[dapoes]

.... Except maybe get some of the company's misinformation refuted, get good info from both sides out to the people so they could make an educated choice, etc., etc.

Perhaps you're against the sort of open discourse because it thwarts a personal agenda of yours?

Nope, its common sense. In a perfect world we wouldn't have unions and everyone could go to Disneyland for free. Unfortunately we don't live in such. It would be an endless "he said-she said" and really wouldn't add any clarification whatsoever and naive.
AFA tends to play the what ifs and worse case scenario rather then facts. You cant really have an intelligent debate with conspiracy theorists. It would go round and round and round and....