There does seem to be a distinction between the two groups. Fundamentally, there's a CASM chasm. LCCs sit below 8c, while legacies are all above 9.5. They cluster beautifully on charts.ELP_WN_Psgr said:
A Viable Approach To Concessions...
- Thread starter ELP_WN_Psgr
- Start date
Yup. So, back to the point of the thread...you're a mech, FA, or pilot (of, say, a 737ELP_WN_Psgr said:
). Do you vote no to concessions and stick around? Do you vote no and leave? Do you vote yes and stick around? Or do you vote yes and leave? (Or, for that matter, do you leave before the vote takes place?)It's very clear what they have in mind. I think it sucks, but ultimately "It sucks" is not one of the boxes on the ballot.
OP
- Nov 29, 2003
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- Thread Starter
- #33
You vote NO unless the concessions are tied to management doing the right thing. You put what management has to do in the contract concessions. if they renege, you liquidate.
OP
- Nov 29, 2003
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- Thread Starter
- #35
Vote No and stay.
In this case, the employees have much more at stake than the revolving door managers.
It's really a shame that it has come to this too. The analogies to the Army are pretty apparent.
Don't know if you have ever spent any time in the military. It's sort of an axiom that a unit takes on the personality of the commander.
If the commander is good....not meaning that he is better, smarter, faster, stronger than everyone......but if he realizes that the soldiers he commands deserve to be properly trained, properly treated, given the right guidance and the latitude to do their jobs.......the unit succeeds. If the commander THINKS he is smarter than his subordinates....and proceeds to micromanage the heck out of everyone......run his people into the ground....pretty soon the resentment builds, things grind to a halt, and the unit develops a reputation as a piece of crap.
USAirways has pretty good soldiers. They've been poorly led. They've been paid well but treated poorly. It was easier for prior management to toss a few dollars their way to shut them up rather than include them as part of a team. The chickens have come home to roost.
But like I said, the employees have more at stake than the management. Cutting wages is a bandaid where what is needed is some serious surgery and maybe a tourniquet.
Until the structural changes are implemented in the company, no amount of wage concessions are going to save the firm. You don't cure cancer with baby aspirin.
The unions are going to have to agree to some sort of concession, but they should only agree when and if the concessions are tied to SPECIFIC management actions.
The management at USAirways needs to realize that the folks in the workforce put their britches on the same way they do...one leg at a time.
Specific structural changes in the company = a yes vote for concessions.
Mysterious promises to do "something" = a no vote for concessions.
It's pretty simple when you look at it that way.
In this case, the employees have much more at stake than the revolving door managers.
It's really a shame that it has come to this too. The analogies to the Army are pretty apparent.
Don't know if you have ever spent any time in the military. It's sort of an axiom that a unit takes on the personality of the commander.
If the commander is good....not meaning that he is better, smarter, faster, stronger than everyone......but if he realizes that the soldiers he commands deserve to be properly trained, properly treated, given the right guidance and the latitude to do their jobs.......the unit succeeds. If the commander THINKS he is smarter than his subordinates....and proceeds to micromanage the heck out of everyone......run his people into the ground....pretty soon the resentment builds, things grind to a halt, and the unit develops a reputation as a piece of crap.
USAirways has pretty good soldiers. They've been poorly led. They've been paid well but treated poorly. It was easier for prior management to toss a few dollars their way to shut them up rather than include them as part of a team. The chickens have come home to roost.
But like I said, the employees have more at stake than the management. Cutting wages is a bandaid where what is needed is some serious surgery and maybe a tourniquet.
Until the structural changes are implemented in the company, no amount of wage concessions are going to save the firm. You don't cure cancer with baby aspirin.
The unions are going to have to agree to some sort of concession, but they should only agree when and if the concessions are tied to SPECIFIC management actions.
The management at USAirways needs to realize that the folks in the workforce put their britches on the same way they do...one leg at a time.
Specific structural changes in the company = a yes vote for concessions.
Mysterious promises to do "something" = a no vote for concessions.
It's pretty simple when you look at it that way.
ELP_WN_Psgr
Thank-you for your insight and wisdom. Your views are the elegant expression of how the majority of the US Airways employees, I know, feel.
Of course the labor groups have to vote no and stay. Consequences of action is one of the requirements for the free market to operate properly. The fact that US Airways management is so intent in trying to force their consequences to quit, is testimony that they are trying to scam more than just their employees.
Thank-you for your insight and wisdom. Your views are the elegant expression of how the majority of the US Airways employees, I know, feel.
Of course the labor groups have to vote no and stay. Consequences of action is one of the requirements for the free market to operate properly. The fact that US Airways management is so intent in trying to force their consequences to quit, is testimony that they are trying to scam more than just their employees.
EyeInTheSky
Veteran
ELP WN, excellent ideas. Doesn't it amaze you something so simple as treating employees as assets is overlooked in many of today's businesses?
pitguy
Veteran
I think WN_ELP_Psgr has some great ideas... I really like the reduced seniority idea... If you have to take concessions, at least reducing seniority has a positive spin on it.... If you are no longer topped-out, its like a partial snap-back, unless US Airways can find a way to stop time.
And JS, you made a comment about why should management sit in coach and a line employee sit in First Class... The answer is that the line employee should feel important, as if their job means something, rather than demeaned at every point along the way. I would think that, yes, all Airways execs need to sit in coach and experience their product. Can't really do a good job selling your product if you never use it and don't appreciate it.
Do you think Herb flies First Class? Given his airline doesn't offer it, I am guessing the answer is no. In fact, Herb often helps out the flight attendants, etc, in entertaining passengers. I'll bet he learns quite a bit about who is on his airplanes by doing so, not to mention gaining the respect of the other employees on board.
It would not kill a US Airways exec, from all levels, to sit in coach and chat with some of the people they are selling their product to.
And JS, you made a comment about why should management sit in coach and a line employee sit in First Class... The answer is that the line employee should feel important, as if their job means something, rather than demeaned at every point along the way. I would think that, yes, all Airways execs need to sit in coach and experience their product. Can't really do a good job selling your product if you never use it and don't appreciate it.
Do you think Herb flies First Class? Given his airline doesn't offer it, I am guessing the answer is no. In fact, Herb often helps out the flight attendants, etc, in entertaining passengers. I'll bet he learns quite a bit about who is on his airplanes by doing so, not to mention gaining the respect of the other employees on board.
It would not kill a US Airways exec, from all levels, to sit in coach and chat with some of the people they are selling their product to.
ELP WN Psgr,
It appears that you have garnered some support for your ideas, and to some, have impressed so much that they would like you to be the next US CEO. I am curious as to your aviation background. Are you an airline employee, and if so, from which group?
I think that you have mastered the art of "posting" on aviation forums whereas you do not offend others with your opinions and you subscribe to relatively popular but largely ineffective thinking. I think rather than CEO you would be better suited in a position like Michael J. Fox had to the Mayor on "Spin City".
It appears that you have garnered some support for your ideas, and to some, have impressed so much that they would like you to be the next US CEO. I am curious as to your aviation background. Are you an airline employee, and if so, from which group?
I think that you have mastered the art of "posting" on aviation forums whereas you do not offend others with your opinions and you subscribe to relatively popular but largely ineffective thinking. I think rather than CEO you would be better suited in a position like Michael J. Fox had to the Mayor on "Spin City".
OP
- Nov 29, 2003
- 419
- 0
- Thread Starter
- #41
C54....
Didn't throw out my suggestions (which nobody ever in a million years would adopt) in order to be popular. In truth, I threw those out not because they sound good....but because I am a radical theorist and figure when you have nothing left to lose, and what you are doing isn't working, you might as well try something else.
I am not an airline employee. I am actually an officer in the United States Army. I spent 3 yrs working in the res center for WN while I was in college, having started when WN had a fleet of 5 aircraft and leaving prior to them getting their 18th. I also busted bags in CLL for a commuter carrier that was absorbed by Rio AIrways (who code shared with DL for a number of years.)
I grew up in an airline household...dad was in management for TT, FL, and was one of the original folks at WN back in '71. He's been retired for many many years.
I was actually the guy who suggested to WN....when they had to sell the 4th airplane to help pay the bills but needed to retain an hourly schedule in order to be competitive with BN....thaqt they could go to a 10 minute turn. I actually took a piece of notebook paper (I was a Junior in high school at the time) and drafted a 3 aircraft schedule which ran hourly between Dallas and Houston and kept 4 trips a day DAL-SAT and 3 trips a day HOU-SAT. Where had I come up with the idea that you could turn a 737 in 10 minutes? I remembered back when I was flying around with dad on DC-3s that TTa managed to turn their DC-3s in 3 minutes at certain intermediate points by leaving the engine on the opposite side of the aircraft from the airstairs running and by having everyone ready to board when the plane taxiied up. With loads being what they were when WN had to go to the 10 min turen (we thought 50 folks was an outrageously full aircraft) I figured you could shove everyone off, let the hostesses (as FAs were called back then) run thru, pick up trash, cross seat belts, and put the 35 or 40 passengers back on the plane in 10 minutes. And even if you didn't, the enroute and taxi times were often less than the 50 minutes scheduled.
I was in the area when my dad got a call (from a pay phone...no cell phones back then) on a Thursday afternoon telling him that the TAC had awarded WN the route into HRL....and that in order to keep a judge from issuing a temporary restraining order, would it be possible to inaugurate service the following Tuesday morning. So leaving Dallas late on a Thursday afternoon, I watched while my dad and the Dallas station manager managed to get phone lines run, a ticket counter built, and the required FAA inspections completed over a weekend and into Monday.
In my present line of work I am notorious for telling people what they don't want to hear but telling it in a way that is usually palatable....and is always accepted as true. My integrity is never in question. The same applies here.
It all boils down to this, however - we KNOW what USAirways is doing isn't working. There should be no question in anyone's mind on that. Thus it would seem that they ought to try something else. I don't know if what I suggested would work either.....but it couldn't be any worse than the current situation. Once you find a formula that works, you want to build on it. If you make changes, and they don't work, it would be time to try something else.
Lunch hour is over here in ELP so I will get back to work. Will check in later.
Didn't throw out my suggestions (which nobody ever in a million years would adopt) in order to be popular. In truth, I threw those out not because they sound good....but because I am a radical theorist and figure when you have nothing left to lose, and what you are doing isn't working, you might as well try something else.
I am not an airline employee. I am actually an officer in the United States Army. I spent 3 yrs working in the res center for WN while I was in college, having started when WN had a fleet of 5 aircraft and leaving prior to them getting their 18th. I also busted bags in CLL for a commuter carrier that was absorbed by Rio AIrways (who code shared with DL for a number of years.)
I grew up in an airline household...dad was in management for TT, FL, and was one of the original folks at WN back in '71. He's been retired for many many years.
I was actually the guy who suggested to WN....when they had to sell the 4th airplane to help pay the bills but needed to retain an hourly schedule in order to be competitive with BN....thaqt they could go to a 10 minute turn. I actually took a piece of notebook paper (I was a Junior in high school at the time) and drafted a 3 aircraft schedule which ran hourly between Dallas and Houston and kept 4 trips a day DAL-SAT and 3 trips a day HOU-SAT. Where had I come up with the idea that you could turn a 737 in 10 minutes? I remembered back when I was flying around with dad on DC-3s that TTa managed to turn their DC-3s in 3 minutes at certain intermediate points by leaving the engine on the opposite side of the aircraft from the airstairs running and by having everyone ready to board when the plane taxiied up. With loads being what they were when WN had to go to the 10 min turen (we thought 50 folks was an outrageously full aircraft) I figured you could shove everyone off, let the hostesses (as FAs were called back then) run thru, pick up trash, cross seat belts, and put the 35 or 40 passengers back on the plane in 10 minutes. And even if you didn't, the enroute and taxi times were often less than the 50 minutes scheduled.
I was in the area when my dad got a call (from a pay phone...no cell phones back then) on a Thursday afternoon telling him that the TAC had awarded WN the route into HRL....and that in order to keep a judge from issuing a temporary restraining order, would it be possible to inaugurate service the following Tuesday morning. So leaving Dallas late on a Thursday afternoon, I watched while my dad and the Dallas station manager managed to get phone lines run, a ticket counter built, and the required FAA inspections completed over a weekend and into Monday.
In my present line of work I am notorious for telling people what they don't want to hear but telling it in a way that is usually palatable....and is always accepted as true. My integrity is never in question. The same applies here.
It all boils down to this, however - we KNOW what USAirways is doing isn't working. There should be no question in anyone's mind on that. Thus it would seem that they ought to try something else. I don't know if what I suggested would work either.....but it couldn't be any worse than the current situation. Once you find a formula that works, you want to build on it. If you make changes, and they don't work, it would be time to try something else.
Lunch hour is over here in ELP so I will get back to work. Will check in later.
ELP WN Psgr,
Its great to get to know a little about you. Your perspective is certainly refreshing. I agree U is at a point that they need to pull out all the stops in terms of creative thinking to save themselves from the inevitable. Those of us on the inside sometimes tend to get tunnel vision.
Its great to get to know a little about you. Your perspective is certainly refreshing. I agree U is at a point that they need to pull out all the stops in terms of creative thinking to save themselves from the inevitable. Those of us on the inside sometimes tend to get tunnel vision.
I hate to admit this, but I am very curious to what your rank is. Would you mind sharing it?ELP_WN_Psgr said:
OP
- Nov 29, 2003
- 419
- 0
Excellent post, sir.
I remember quick turns.
Back in the old, pre-jetway days, we'd put steps on the fore and aft passenger doors. Announce to deplaning passengers, rows 1 thru 10, exit the forward door, rows 11 thru 19, the aft door. Reverse the process for enplaning passengers.
Meanwhile 6 guys are unloading/reloading both bins at the same time.
Many was the time we'd turn 75 pax off/75 on//2500 lbs cx on/2500 off in 15 minutes.
Our record was a blazing 8 minutes once. We were hustling a late flight to make connections. Had the inbound crew make the announcements for the deplaning passengers, and made it like a game for everybody to win.
Those were the days!
I remember quick turns.
Back in the old, pre-jetway days, we'd put steps on the fore and aft passenger doors. Announce to deplaning passengers, rows 1 thru 10, exit the forward door, rows 11 thru 19, the aft door. Reverse the process for enplaning passengers.
Meanwhile 6 guys are unloading/reloading both bins at the same time.
Many was the time we'd turn 75 pax off/75 on//2500 lbs cx on/2500 off in 15 minutes.
Our record was a blazing 8 minutes once. We were hustling a late flight to make connections. Had the inbound crew make the announcements for the deplaning passengers, and made it like a game for everybody to win.
Those were the days!
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