AA drops LAX-LAS Eagle to replace

[MAH4546]

There's always talk of adding more MIA domestic service, but it usually fizzles right after the full year financials and 1Q forecast are released.

if the pullback of JFK-NCL and lack of announcements concerning destinations for the wingletted 757ER fleet is any indication, I wouldn't be so quick to be looking for any significant domestic expansion, especially out of MIA.

We'll just have to wait and see. The MIA domestic expansion sure didn't fizzle last year, when Eagle added GSO, MEM, DAY, SDF, ORF, and dailies to CVG and CMH; and JFK, LGA, LAX, PHL, IND, and DCA enjoyed extra year-round frequencies.

 

[Skymess]

We'll just have to wait and see. The MIA domestic expansion sure didn't fizzle last year, when Eagle added GSO, MEM, DAY, SDF, ORF, and dailies to CVG and CMH; and JFK, LGA, LAX, PHL, IND, and DCA enjoyed extra year-round frequencies.

I guess it is all how you look at it. You appear to be management and management sees us as one big happy family. The AMR family.

For the record. We are two different companies. Eagle might like the comparison but AA workers don't.

I didn't want to work for a commuter airline so I didn't apply for one. When we talk about flying on this board we are talking about what American Airlines, the real airline, is doing. This is the American Airlines board.

If Eagle starts taking over AA routes that doesn't do those of us at AA much good. I know it makes my job more miserable because there are less lines on my bid sheet to choose from.

Eagle is a convenient syphon for American Airlines money.

I appreciate your input on this board but I just want to point out to you how most of us at AA see it.

 

[MiAAmi]

I guess it is all how you look at it. You appear to be management and management sees us as one big happy family. The AMR family.

For the record. We are two different companies. Eagle might like the comparison but AA workers don't.

I didn't want to work for a commuter airline so I didn't apply for one. When we talk about flying on this board we are talking about what American Airlines, the real airline, is doing. This is the American Airlines board.

If Eagle starts taking over AA routes that doesn't do those of us at AA much good. I know it makes my job more miserable because there are less lines on my bid sheet to choose from.

Eagle is a convenient syphon for American Airlines money.

I appreciate your input on this board but I just want to point out to you how most of us at AA see it.

I'm not so sure that "most" of the workers see it that way. Eagle provides important feed to AA. If AA is to return to profitability then AA can not continue to lose money on smaller routes like LAX-LAS. As long as no AA aircraft are parked AA workers should not have any problem with AA moving mainline aircraft out of smaller markets and moving them to more profitable ones. I think returning AA to a money making company is more important than how you bid your schedule. Remember AA is not parking a/c, they will be reallocating the a/c elsewhere. No less flying for AA crews.

 

[N288AA]

I'm not so sure that "most" of the workers see it that way. Eagle provides important feed to AA. If AA is to return to profitability then AA can not continue to lose money on smaller routes like LAX-LAS. As long as no AA aircraft are parked AA workers should not have any problem with AA moving mainline aircraft out of smaller markets and moving them to more profitable ones. I think returning AA to a money making company is more important than how you bid your schedule. Remember AA is not parking a/c, they will be reallocating the a/c elsewhere. No less flying for AA crews.

They are not parking a/c? Three S80s went to ROW in December.

 

[mrman]

I guess it is all how you look at it. You appear to be management and management sees us as one big happy family. The AMR family.

For the record. We are two different companies. Eagle might like the comparison but AA workers don't.

I appreciate your input on this board but I just want to point out to you how most of us at AA see it.

More importantly the customer sees it as one entity, like it or not, the marketing department markets it as one airline, like it or not. You are two subsidiaries of one company.

 

[eolesen]

Remember AA is not parking a/c, they will be reallocating the a/c elsewhere. No less flying for AA crews.

While the total number of block hours per flight might not be dropping, that's because AA is longer segments with fewer departures. It's fewer crews doing the flying, and fewer ground employees handling fewer departures.

 

[Skymess]

I'm not so sure that "most" of the workers see it that way. Eagle provides important feed to AA. If AA is to return to profitability then AA can not continue to lose money on smaller routes like LAX-LAS. As long as no AA aircraft are parked AA workers should not have any problem with AA moving mainline aircraft out of smaller markets and moving them to more profitable ones. I think returning AA to a money making company is more important than how you bid your schedule. Remember AA is not parking a/c, they will be reallocating the a/c elsewhere. No less flying for AA crews.

Let me quote B.O.B. here, "Have you been drinking the KoolAAid" ?


I guess you are being positive about things but I just can't help looking at Eagle as an AA parasite and an AMR convenience.

 

[MiAAmi]

If I disagree with you then I'm pro-company is that your only response? If wanting AA to fly profitable routes is pro-company then yes I am pro-company. If you think that Eagle is not a fact of life at AA then it is you that is delusional. I'm not so sure that AE taking over LAX-LAS shouldn't have happened a long time ago. Higher yielding routes is where the mainline a/c should be. I don't feel like taking anymore pay cuts how about you? Any a/c that were parked in DEC were planned to be parked a long time ago. No new a/c have been assigned to be parked with the lastest route cancellations. Do I want eagle to fly all of AA's domestic system? NO! Do I want AA to go BK over smaller routes like LAX-LAS? NO. Especially when we have a tool like AE to cover the route while the mainline a/c move to more profitable city pairs. I think your over reacting to this move. I say be agressive with the schedule and build on what we already know is profitable.

 

[kirkpatrick]

While the total number of block hours per flight might not be dropping, that's because AA is longer segments with fewer departures. It's fewer crews doing the flying, and fewer ground employees handling fewer departures.

While I can understand the need for fewer ground crews, how does this relate to flight crews? We are limited by block hours. It seems to me that fewer segments per person would mean more people, so it would pretty much be a wash.

MK

 

[AirLUVer]

AA has been notorious for scheduling ineffeciencies. Lines with lots of pay and credit. By scheduling more efficiently with longer flights, you need the same if not fewer people to fly the same schedule.

 

[will fix for food]

I guess it is all how you look at it. You appear to be management and management sees us as one big happy family. The AMR family.

For the record. We are two different companies. Eagle might like the comparison but AA workers don't.

I didn't want to work for a commuter airline so I didn't apply for one. When we talk about flying on this board we are talking about what American Airlines, the real airline, is doing. This is the American Airlines board.

If Eagle starts taking over AA routes that doesn't do those of us at AA much good. I know it makes my job more miserable because there are less lines on my bid sheet to choose from.

Eagle is a convenient syphon for American Airlines money.

I appreciate your input on this board but I just want to point out to you how most of us at AA see it.

Apparently this is how one APA pilot see it. I believe he is a domicile chairman:


I haven't had time to read through these forums lately and I'm not going to go searching through these threads, but I understand from a SoundOff that there are questions regarding Eagle's participation in the PLI.
Eagle has not yet had the full detailed PLI review of their operations as compared to other carriers in their class. It is my understanding that that will take place later. One reason for this is that a quick snapshot of Eagle compared to the industry doesn't show that there are large gaps to be found in their operation compared to other regional operators that provide feed to traditional carriers. Eagle’s employee pay rates and productivity are already contractually in line on average with other carriers in their class.

Eagle was part of the current PLI process in measuring cost of providing feed to AA as compared to other traditional carrier affiliates and while I don't have the numbers here in front of me, I believe only Chautauqua came in slightly better. This due to their ability to contract feed at a lower cost because of their combined contracts with American, Delta, United, and US Airways rather than only one mainline affiliate.

APA does not have the ability to keep AMR out of bankruptcy. What we can do is provide AA productivity on a competitive level with other strong carrier pilot groups. It would then be up to the management of AA to use an improved ability to compete and AA's product and network power to bring the business back to profitability.

Eagle is no longer growing. They received their last aircraft delivery last July. What Eagle is doing is taking over an increasing number of mainline flights because under the current industry economic conditions, Eagle loses less money on those flights than the mainline aircraft do and it's important from a marketing standpoint to keep the network in place.

Like is or not, Eagle brings 1.5 to 1.7 billion dollars of connect revenue to the mainline at a lower cost than what that revenue can be brought otherwise. The reality is that in today's current environment, if AMR was to remove all regional feed, they would not replace it with mainline flights because of the increased loses they would incur and THAT means AA as we know it today would continue to shrink. The simple fact of the matter is that this airline must find a way to be profitable if we expect to see any real growth again.

My suggestion is to get over the bitterness of what Eagle didn't give up in 2003. They are already providing lift at a MUCH lower cost than us at a productivity level far beyond ours. Our demanding that they take further cuts which would further widen the cost/productivity gap to their advantage is stupid in my opinion and falls directly into the category of "be careful what you ask for". I do not see how lowering Eagles costs relative to ours will ever be to our advantage. Quite the contrary - Lowering Eagles costs will only give AMR reason to take a greater advantage of that cost difference.

Eagle is NOT off limits in regards to costs savings that could be found through the PLI process and I believe every cost gap Eagle has should be scrutinized however, we need to keep perspective on how that will further affect us as well. I prefer Eagle for the most part to remain as is. Their equipment disadvantage on a competitive level as more regional carriers move to larger aircraft will cause Eagle to wither on the vine over time as long as we remain firm on Scope. We want AA to replace Eagle with a more competitive product that WE fly.

Instead of focusing on Eagle you should be focusing on the real competition that is about to kick our ass. Continental is rapidly expanding their international markets and ordering new aircraft, Boeing has firm orders for 254 787's. In my opinion, keeping our head in the sand, #####ing about Eagle, ignoring the large scale competitive challenges AA faces and folding our arms to remain stagnant isn't going to help any of us in the long run. What is really more important? Widening the cost gap between us and Eagle or finding a way to compete agressivly against our competition and get American growing again?

I'm off to London, go enjoy the holidays with your family and friends. Life is too short to spend so much of it being bitter - it is what it is, there are many people in the world less fortunate than us. Like it or not we all have to deal with the cards we are dealt. Let’s find a way to all move forward together next year and see if we can’t influence some real growth in this airline instead of continually dividing ourselves in the bitterness of the past.

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

[will fix for food]

Eagle is a convenient syphon for American Airlines money.

I suggest you look these numbers over:

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/finance/fin20053.pdf

Look closely at page 39. Who has the highest Operating Profit Margin for the previous 12 months? Hint: It's Eagle.

Yes, higher than Southwest.

What is Eagle's FPD margin? The last I heard it was around 6-8%. You do the math on who is syphoning money from who.

 

[Bob Owens]

I suggest you look these numbers over:

http://ostpxweb.dot.gov/aviation/finance/fin20053.pdf

Look closely at page 39. Who has the highest Operating Profit Margin for the previous 12 months? Hint: It's Eagle.

Yes, higher than Southwest.

What is Eagle's FPD margin? The last I heard it was around 6-8%. You do the math on who is syphoning money from who.

That could be because AA buys all the seats on Eagle, guaranteeing them a profit.

As Eagle continues to expand, with AA providing them a guaranteed profit it puts an even greater burden on AAs bottom line.

What yould you rather see WWFF AA get sucked up into AE and we all end up working under AE rates or AE getting sucked up by AA and you working under AA rates?

 

[DFWCC]

I'm not so sure that "most" of the workers see it that way. Eagle provides important feed to AA. If AA is to return to profitability then AA can not continue to lose money on smaller routes like LAX-LAS. As long as no AA aircraft are parked AA workers should not have any problem with AA moving mainline aircraft out of smaller markets and moving them to more profitable ones. I think returning AA to a money making company is more important than how you bid your schedule. Remember AA is not parking a/c, they will be reallocating the a/c elsewhere. No less flying for AA crews.

What you think the airline is made up of flying "crews" only? What about the ground personel who get laid off and may have to move to rotten tx? Yeah I know the "they still have a job" story but that's like saying take a 20% cut in pay.... "hey you still have a job" it just doesn't equate

 

[will fix for food]

That could be because AA buys all the seats on Eagle, guaranteeing them a profit.

Yes AA guarantee's Eagle makes a profit with the FPD. However, Eagle provides more money to AA through the combined connect revenues and onboard revenues than it gets back in FPD money.

As Eagle continues to expand, with AA providing them a guaranteed profit it puts an even greater burden on AAs bottom line.

See above.

What yould you rather see WWFF AA get sucked up into AE and we all end up working under AE rates or AE getting sucked up by AA and you working under AA rates?

I think it would be a cold day in hell before either scenario happens. AA employees would burn down the house before they worked for Eagle pay and benefits and AMR would NEVER willingly bring Eagle up to AA's standard of living.