Air marshals' shooting of passenger in December justified

[FA Mikey]

Ever ride in front of some old foggy who didn't like the beer selection on board? Sounds crazy too doesn't it? And this guy's wife was trying to make him be reasonable too.

The pax the air marshall shot was no threat to the airplane anymore, he might have been a threat in the terminal. Air marshalls are supposed to fly icognito, these two idiots just gave their ID away to any of a number of potential hijackers casing flights.

The split second decision these two marshalls made was that they forgot what their mission is, and law enforcement ranks way below counterterrorism. Which is why the FBI is not very good at counterterrorism and counterespionage, job one is to prevent the action, job two build a legal case.

With cell phone cameras, one could easely build a picture record, starting with these two and all the folks they talks too...

Kind of like the Valerie Plame outing, outed everyone she met during her work for the CIA.

There are far easier ways to find out who the FAMS are. Every single person on board also got interviewed by the FBI. Anything suspicious and they too would be keeping tabs.

 

[QA4Jet-A]

The box cutters that slit the troats of the FA's and pilots were and continue to be a threat.

I believe it was NASA and the FAA who used 2 scraped 720's to test bomb and explosive decompression. One bomb placed in an OH bin blew out a huge hole one they determined was unsurvivable for the AC. Using a second one they placed near a door. The door gave way and absorbed most of the blast. It produced no major damage to flight controls and was determined to be survivable. Might explain How the DC10 cargo door saved the day.

The show bomber was next to the window and I believe the emergency exit, which puts him next to the wing and a fuel cell. How that would have play out hard to say.

I spoke with someone from Interpol a while back about this very issue. His statement to me was, "If your seat is directly above the Center Fuel tank and the explosive's are on the floor, under a seat, it doesn't take alot of ammo to compromise that tank... then the BIG Kaboom". Terrorists already know this so please refrain from slamming me on passed info. Hence the increased Scrutiny on explosives by the TSA lately???

 

[Wretched Wrench]

His statement to me was, "If your seat is directly above the Center Fuel tank and the explosive's are on the floor, under a seat, it doesn't take alot of ammo to compromise that tank... then the BIG Kaboom".

Good point. However, the center tank on most airliners is not exactly a tank, but part of the wing. As such, it is pretty strong, being primary structure. Exactly how much explosive it would take to breach it, I don't know, but it is not fragile. I believe it is stronger than the fuselage skin. Perhaps a structures man could contribute.

The technology already exists to replace the air in a tank with an inert gas that will not allow explosion. I wonder if this should be looked at with regard to terrorists with explosives.

I am very glad to hear that the TSA is increasing scrutiny for explosives.

 

[QA4Jet-A]

Good point. However, the center tank on most airliners is not exactly a tank, but part of the wing. As such, it is pretty strong, being primary structure. Exactly how much explosive it would take to breach it, I don't know, but it is not fragile. I believe it is stronger than the fuselage skin. Perhaps a structures man could contribute.

The technology already exists to replace the air in a tank with an inert gas that will not allow explosion. I wonder if this should be looked at with regard to terrorists with explosives.

I am very glad to hear that the TSA is increasing scrutiny for explosives.

From what I hear, and please correct me if I am wrong, which is usually 75% of the time, the inert gas idea is only a guess, until proven, and the idea is to replace air with Nitrogen to prevent an explosion. However, if an explosion occurs, enough oxygen would have to be present to occur, which would enter from the cabin.. With the introduction of explosives' into a fuel tank, oxygen would be entered via the entrusion of "said" explosives, therefore fueling the flames. Pardon me if I am wrong on this but some Center tanks are located in the Belly, hence limited forward cargo room on some aircraft types. Yes, some have, what is called, Center Wing Tanks. As best I can remember, and I will have to check my sense of thought, there are some aircraft with fuel tanks under the fuselage. At least, that is where we sump them from. Maybe we could ask a Plumber?

 

[Bob Owens]

No one at the time knew he had no real weapon.

He didnt even have a fake one. Before deadly force is used they should be pretty sure that its absolutely neccisary. In hindsight are you still claiming that that man deserved to die?

In Florida as well as most other states, use of deadly force is justified in an attempt to take, steal, or wrestle away an officers gun, mace or radio.

Did he try and do any of those things?

Explain how you would subdue someone in this situation.
Or in to the terminal, either one posed the potential for a large loss of life.

Explain how there was the potential for a large loss of life when the man had no weapons.

Dept. of homeland security and the Local D.A. say you are wrong. They have all the facts and statements from all the witness. All the facts to the case. You are just going on media reports and a personal bias, to law enforcement.

I'm going on the facts that I was given, are you naive enogh to believe that politics and bais played no role in their decision to clear those guys?

Says you. But being a flight attendant and having been with passengers from boarding to deplaning for the last 15 years. I have NEVER seen someone run off the plane. I challenge you to show us how frequently it happens as you say.

Well tell me where I could find such figures and I'll see what I can find. I can say that over the last 27 years that I've worked at the airport I've seen many, many flights delayed because passengers either got off the plane or at the last second refused to get on and they had to make sure that all the passengers bags were removed.

His actions were consistent with that of a panicked passenger and not that of a terrorist? Are you serious? How many other panicked passengers have airlines had that ran up the aisle of a plane yelling bomb and refusing to stop when confronted by armed law enforcement?

How many airlines had terrorists say "bomb" and run off the plane?

He was rightfully viewed as a potential terrorist

Rightfully viewed as a "potential terrorist". What is a potential terrorist? Couldnt that title apply to just about anybody?

Today you cannot spot a terrorist or someone out to do you harm.

So your answer is to kill anyone who you think may be a potential threat?

Just the same way wars cannot be fought the same way. No longer we fighting countries, but fighting ideology and people with no uniform or allegiance to a country or place.

You've been watching too much FOX.

Bob you cannot use logic in trying to determine the mind of a psychotic, of someone who has chosen to use there body to destroy the lives of others. Logic has no place in calculating there actions.

Now you are a Psychiatrist, and you have determined that all mentally ill people are dangerous to others. I think that you and Hitler have a lot in common. He too felt that the mentally ill did not deserve to live.

You still have not made a valid arguement that supports your assertion that that man posed a threat to anybody. From what I'm reading you apparently feel that your fears justify the death of anyone who behaves in a way that could frighten you into believing that they pose a potential, possible, threat, to your well being.

None of his actions point more toward panic over terrorist.

No? Did he or did he not reportedly run off the plane in a highly agitated state?

If he were a Terrorist wouldnt he have produced his weapon before calling attention to himself?

The DA investagates all deathes by police.They are cleared by two different bodies of the law.

Like OJ Simpson.

As far as bombs bringing down airliners some have, like Lockerbie, and others havent, like the TWA 727 in Greece.

 

[FA Mikey]

He didnt even have a fake one. Before deadly force is used they should be pretty sure that its absolutely neccisary. In hindsight are you still claiming that that man deserved to die?

All indications were he was armed and dangerous. Law enforcement for their own safety sometime has to assume you have what you claim to. He claimed to have a dangerous weapon.

Did he try and do any of those things?


Explain how there was the potential for a large loss of life when the man had no weapons.

In a situation the police do not have the luxury to wait to see a bomb go off or a gun shot at them.

I'm going on the facts that I was given, are you naive enogh to believe that politics and bais played no role in their decision to clear those guys?

What bias? What politics?

Well tell me where I could find such figures and I'll see what I can find. I can say that over the last 27 years that I've worked at the airport I've seen many, many flights delayed because passengers either got off the plane or at the last second refused to get on and they had to make sure that all the passengers bags were removed.

Sorry you made the quote about many. So how many times is "many many flights? I have never once see it. We havent even had positive bag match on domestic for that many years, I guess the most of them were international then?

How many airlines had terrorists say "bomb" and run off the plane?

I only know of one. I know of many where people make comments or leave notes. Guess what, we always take them seriously and land or evacuate the plane. Bomb dogs and FBI involved. I guess if you were running the show here Bob, you would just let the flight go unless someone actually showed off the bomb?

Rightfully viewed as a "potential terrorist". What is a potential terrorist? Couldnt that title apply to just about anybody?

Yea that is why we do positive bag match and we do not let people who say bomb or gun at security or any where in the airport with out checking them out.

So your answer is to kill anyone who you think may be a potential threat?

Those are your words. I have never said that. But in this situation it was justified.

You've been watching too much FOX.
Now you are a Psychiatrist, and you have determined that all mentally ill people are dangerous to others. I think that you and Hitler have a lot in common. He too felt that the mentally ill did not deserve to live.

Lets see you say I am a psychiarist, while playing one yourself.

You still have not made a valid arguement that supports your assertion that that man posed a threat to anybody. From what I'm reading you apparently feel that your fears justify the death of anyone who behaves in a way that could frighten you into believing that they pose a potential, possible, threat, to your well being.

I have and the facts have. on every level of investigation. seems the only one unable to accept this man was a justified threat at the time is you.

No? Did he or did he not reportedly run off the plane in a highly agitated state?

If he were a Terrorist wouldnt he have produced his weapon before calling attention to himself?


Like OJ Simpson.

As far as bombs bringing down airliners some have, like Lockerbie, and others havent, like the TWA 727 in Greece.

Sorry I didnt know there was a procedure for terrorists and how they kill. Please forward that info to the FBI and homeland security. I am sure they would love your insight.

 

[goingboeing]

So, he was killed for "refusing to comply"?

Yeah, I don't think you really mean that, but there is too much of killing someone because of "I thought he was reaching for a gun" or something. Or, in your words "he could have grabbed a gun". Of course, only law enforcement can do that. I remember a deaf mute shot by police as he reached for his "I am a deaf mute" card so they could read it. Yeah, they thought he was reaching for a gun. If a civilian, in fear of his life, does the same thing, he is held to a much higher standard, both in criminal and civil law. I am waiting for a person to be shot for reaching for his cell phone. Some people scare me with their quick-draw cell phone-grabbing.

I know the air marshals have a tough call to make, and this one was a tough one. But he guessed wrong, and a man died. The marshal is not a criminal, but he should never carry a gun again. I believe law enforcement in general needs to be held more accountable for their mistakes, particularly their fatal mistakes. In some jurisdictions, there are more unarmed people than armed killed by police.

It is no mistake to shoot someone who is making a bomb threat in a public place and refuses to comply with verbal orders of the authorities.

How about laying the blame on whoever put him on an aircraft without proper medication?This was endangering the passengers and crew as well as the individual himself.
Maybe people who have mental disorders should not be flying on commercial flights without proper medical supervision traveling with them.

It is amazing how fast people want to always lay the blame on the police[authorities]when an officer has to discharge their weapon in the line of duty.
How about holding indivduals accountable for their actions instead of blaming someone else?

 

[Wretched Wrench]

It is amazing how fast people want to always lay the blame on the police[authorities]when an officer has to discharge their weapon in the line of duty.

You're painting with too broad a brush there. The issue at hand is an unarmed man being killed. Every time that happens, there should indeed be questions raised.

 

[QA4Jet-A]

You're painting with too broad a brush there. The issue at hand is an unarmed man being killed. Every time that happens, there should indeed be questions raised.

The issue at hand is an unarmed man being killed. Pardon me, but if the Man said he had a Bomb, would you just blow it off and ignore it? If you would, as a LEO, I wouldn't want to be near you if I needed LE help.
I know many LEO's in Dade County and not one of them said this was unjustified. Yes, he was unarmed, but who knew it at the time? Call it what you want, Cop Suicide, Stupidity, or Lack of Meds, He screwed up and died as a result of it. IMHO, the FAM's did what they were supposed to do. Yes, he was off the plane. I suppose you and Bob think they should have just said, "Screw it, it's not our problem anymore, Bomb or not". Let's let Metro handle it and hop on a microphone in the Terminal and announce, "Attention, we just had a Man run off an airplane who says he has a bomb but he is not our problem anymore. We're out of here". Some of you folks amaze me and should be working for Greenpeace.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

I know many LEO's in Dade County and not one of them said this was unjustified.

Now, there's a surprise! Thank you for sharing.

I suppose you and Bob think they should have just said, "Screw it, ...etc, etc."

You suppose wrong. Previous comments on straw man argument apply.

 

[QA4Jet-A]

Now, there's a surprise! Thank you for sharing.
You suppose wrong. Previous comments on straw man argument apply.

OK, Please explain the Foreign Intrigue bit of straw man. I do need to be informed. :blink: As for your surprise about the Dade County LEO's, you don't surprise me. I bet you have an agenda with the NRA too. h34r:

 

[Wretched Wrench]

I bet you have an agenda with the NRA too. h34r:

Wrong again.

Way wrong.

Life member since Eisenhower. The NRA saved my life. Their Junior Marksmanship Program taught me how to shoot. I have returned the favor by being an instructor for young shooters. One of my sons was Honor Graduate of the Army sniper school. Not bad for a Naval Officer. And my wife is a better pistol shot than most men. I'm proud of my family of shooters and NRA members.

Well, you did bring it up.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

Wrong again.

Way wrong.

Life member since Eisenhower. The NRA saved my life. Their Junior Marksmanship Program taught me how to shoot. I have returned the favor by being an instructor for young shooters. One of my sons was Honor Graduate of the Army sniper school. Not bad for a Naval Officer. And my wife is a better pistol shot than most men. I'm proud of my family of shooters and NRA members.

Well, you did bring it up.

Ok Mr. NRA life member, What would you do if a person was chanting "I have a BOMB!"? This same person was acting in an very irrational manner and absolutely refused to obey any of your commands to drop the "BOMB-BACKPACK" they were holding in their arms? After repeated warnings to drop the "backpack" the person then reachs into the backpack, do you take the shot or wait see if a bomb detonates?

 

[Bagbelt]

For 20 years in Boston the local FBI co-operated with the no.2 fugitive in the country right now to bring down LCN. He ran organised crime while any attempt to grab him was squashed by the "good guys"- they are being punished for it. I believe those guys did what they thought was necessary, but Bob is right. Any use of deadly force must be investigated. It can't be taken for granted that justice will come before the politics of an organisation.

 

[Wretched Wrench]

Ok Mr. NRA life member, What would you do if ........etc, etc?

Heck, I might have shot him, too. But as it turns out, it might have been a mistake. Neither of us knows the true facts nor do we know which witnesses are to be believed.