Hey my buddy works for UAL and says the opposite ,they are so glad that the UA/US deal went south..... Dont fool yourself , nobody wants to give up their senority..... NOBODY !!!
AMR talks about training fill-in flight attendants
- Thread starter Hatu
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Are you noticing the absence of your leader nancy mcguire defending her position on here while you and the other's continue to defend the indefensible? Do you see how she's abusing the power you've given her because of a loss of power within her own life? Do you see how you will forever be labeled a scab and you will not have gained one minute of seniority all to feed nancy's need to still be relevant in the airline industry? Are you prepared, should it come to a strike, to spend the rest of your days called scab on the plane? Have your luggage thrown on the catering truck as you start your 3 day trip? Layover clothes scattered about the lav just so you can cross a picket line to make her feel validated? Are you prepared to do all of this for a company that has screwed its employees worse than you think apfa has screwed you? Seniority is not coming back as all of you have burned that bridge long ago as even former supporters have no respect for a coalition that supports management over a labor group. Is this really how you want to end careers as true unionists...chants of scab, scab , scab following you everywhere even in your sleep?
TWskyliner
Senior
That sounds just awful! Nancy has had a loss of power within her own life? When did that happen?
I have responded where needed. I was asked to Chair the Coalition because I don't get on power trips and let the small stuff ruffle me. My personal life is just fine and my job makes flying look like childs play. I am thankful for the skills gained from 35 years in the industry.
I think it is safe to say that there are those on this bb that will never admit that our treatment was wrong and will go to their graves trying to defend the indefensible. There are those of us that will never agree that what was done to us (and to RENO) was fair. Of our workforce, 1/4 would have been at the bottom and hopefully we would be advocating for their return (or would have figured out a means to protect their jobs), 1/2 would have been in the middle, and 1/4 would have been amongst the senior. JFK and STL would have kept the bulk of the group and the rest divided throughout the system would not have been as heinous as you imagine.
Please remember I have merely predicted a course of action. There is no loyalty to the APFA. The Coalition has an astounding membership that continues to grow. There is no recall by-pass available and until YOU ALL are faced with a very hard decision, no one really knows what anyone will do. In much better times more than 10% of your membership crossed within those 5 days. How fast do you think the wall will fall when the first CHAOS participants are fired. I suppose it all depends on whether you have faith in your leaderships ability to negotiate a back to work agreement that returns those fired back to work.
Do you honestly think we should have been "grateful"? For what? There are more former members of TWAs management still working than f/as. And you want to risk your career with this kind of union protection? Would you go quietly into that good night if faced with the same treatment? I hope not. You don't get it both ways. You want brotherhood/sisterhood? Right the wrong and you will have immeasurable support.
Because their workers ended up on your seniority lists and they too got nothing. As unioists we shouldnt let the actions of a company determine whether we retain seniority or not. When companies decide to merge we really dont have much say in that, (you guys had more say than the AA people because of of your LPPs, which your union waived in the hopes of saving jobs. If they didnt then all of this would have been moot.)
Exactly, AA, not the APFA. Thats part of my point, it was AA that laid you off, it was AA that bought TWA, your unions favored the purchase as an alternative to TWA liquidating through bankruptcy, you would have been like Pan Am and EAL they got nothing, instead you got something, but not everything. Your unions even waived their LPPs to make the merger happen, AA demanded that you waive your LPPs, not the unions at AA. The workers at AA never wanted any part of the merger, and for good reason, they picked the right carrier, the one that survived, so far, and if you guys came in, as TWA dissapeared, they would be headed to the streets because most of the TWA employees that remained were very senior. Nearly every employee at AA would have been negatively affected to one degree or another.
Dont recall saying that you were involved in the Kasher ruling, which was for TWU, as far as which union you were in you werent in the APFA, so which union you were in really doesnt matter.
Agreed, nobody wants to give up seniority, but most in the industry still did the right thing. Most.
Ah but did the union at OZ waive their LPPs under the threat of BK and liquidation? You really didnt get a choice and when they came on, when was that 1988? Did you end up getting laid off as a result?
I'm a mechanic and I can tell you that we had a TWA/OZ guy here from STL, he told me that they were not welcomed when they were brought in. He and his union did not want the merger and refused to waive the LPPs, they were quite content and better paid at Ozark. So it wasnt the goodwill of the IAM that gave him his seniority, it was the fact that his union would have blocked the merger unless they got it. That gave them negotaiting leverage.
I still havent read any answers about why unionists who fight to preserve wages and benifits and lose their jobs as a result should get nothing, just like non-union people, but unionists who agree to concessions after concessions and made Carl Ichann even wealthier shoud get everything when he dumps it into bankruptcy and another carrier buys whats left.
I have another question. Lets say your unions refused to waive their LPPs. What do you think would have happened at TWA then? My guess is they would have liquidated and you would have been just like those who came from EAL and Pan Am and had nothing. You got something, not much, less than the IAM did but more than the workers at EAL and Pan Am did.
What happened to you guys sucks, no doubt about it but it was AA that did it to you. As far as seniority if you were in the NAAtives position you would have done the same thing, in fact you did when the workers from EAL and Pan Am showed up in your workplace, you could have changed your rules to recognize their years of service as unionized workers but you didnt. Buy outs mergers etc thats all company functions, thats why unions bargain for LPPs, your unions gave that away, we will never know if it was the prudent choice.
I dont agree with fellow NAAtives who demean and attck you guys, I realize that you are more like us and we are more like you than most want to realize. I realize that it sucks when after decades of loyal service your employer abandons you but whats done is done, nobody is going to willingly give their job to someone else because of the years of service they put in somewhere else unless they are guaranteed to get the same consideration down the road. We should consolidate the airline labor movement and make our careers , pensions and seniority portable. It would give us a huge amount of leverage at the bargaining table if all those things were not tied to the fate of any single employer, but everybody went on as if the company they worked for would be around forever, but thats not how things worked out.
As sad as all this is it would really be sad to see the same people, who as you say were out for years because they struck years ago, end up being scabs. No matter what you say about what was done with the seniority lists its just plain wrong to scab.
Most had no say... We did.....
They'd done the same thing...
Bob, TWA Inc was bought by AMR. TWA LLC was formed by AA and had nothing to do with TWA Inc. It was formed to put the TWA employees into a newly formed Company to protect the AA employees seniority. Thus the infamous "6" payroll numbers. Additionally,
in the SIA, it is stated that TWA was to keep their seniority in St Louis as this was their protected base. Jane Ellen has even stated this in a letter she wrote. Any new flight attendant coming into St Louis as a new TWA LLC flight attendant...and if you were now certified by the FAA as a TWA LLC flight attendant then you were considered new. Therefore, per the SIA as it is quoted, those newly hired scab TWA LLC
flight attendants should have gone to the bottom of the TWA LLC system seniority list. Remember, until trained TWA LLC was not
integrated into AA as they were not on the AA certificates flying AA routes per the FAA. As for the IAM. They did not represent the TWA LLC
flight attendants because TWA LLC was an American Company and TWA Inc no longer existed. The IAM was merely "asked" by AA/AMR to continue to represent the TWA flight attendants and since they were not voted in to represent the TWA LLC fllght attendants they could not be
involved in any contractual issues. Remember they were only paying agency fees and nothing more. The IAM never bothered to inform the TWA LLC flight attendants and thus the confusion. Additionally, APFA has also been aware...so the screw job was BIG and the payoff was
lots and lots of money. Do not forget, when the NMB declared single carrier, there is suppose to be a vote to elect the union to be represented. Does not matter if APFA won or not. This process was never done and AA/AMR/APFA took advantage of this. The $$$$$$$
for confidentiality agreements to keep quiet paid off nicely for all those at the top.
And speaking of SCABS....the Presidential Grievance that John Ward initiated in Nov 2001 and agreed to by AA in March 2002 gave
all the AA probationary flight attendants continuous seniority by passing the TWA LLC flight attendants the previlege of not having
to satisfy the 6 month probation required of ALL AA employees. Thus most of the 59's recalled were and will always be scabs as
they are true forms of what a scab is.
in the SIA, it is stated that TWA was to keep their seniority in St Louis as this was their protected base. Jane Ellen has even stated this in a letter she wrote. Any new flight attendant coming into St Louis as a new TWA LLC flight attendant...and if you were now certified by the FAA as a TWA LLC flight attendant then you were considered new. Therefore, per the SIA as it is quoted, those newly hired scab TWA LLC
flight attendants should have gone to the bottom of the TWA LLC system seniority list. Remember, until trained TWA LLC was not
integrated into AA as they were not on the AA certificates flying AA routes per the FAA. As for the IAM. They did not represent the TWA LLC
flight attendants because TWA LLC was an American Company and TWA Inc no longer existed. The IAM was merely "asked" by AA/AMR to continue to represent the TWA flight attendants and since they were not voted in to represent the TWA LLC fllght attendants they could not be
involved in any contractual issues. Remember they were only paying agency fees and nothing more. The IAM never bothered to inform the TWA LLC flight attendants and thus the confusion. Additionally, APFA has also been aware...so the screw job was BIG and the payoff was
lots and lots of money. Do not forget, when the NMB declared single carrier, there is suppose to be a vote to elect the union to be represented. Does not matter if APFA won or not. This process was never done and AA/AMR/APFA took advantage of this. The $$$$$$$
for confidentiality agreements to keep quiet paid off nicely for all those at the top.
And speaking of SCABS....the Presidential Grievance that John Ward initiated in Nov 2001 and agreed to by AA in March 2002 gave
all the AA probationary flight attendants continuous seniority by passing the TWA LLC flight attendants the previlege of not having
to satisfy the 6 month probation required of ALL AA employees. Thus most of the 59's recalled were and will always be scabs as
they are true forms of what a scab is.
Alot of your facts are wrong.... You are telling tall tales now...
Well, like the pilots on another forum, the AA f/as (both native and former TW) can not seem to resist rehashing each person's version of the past over and over again. None of you listen to each other, you just restate your version of the truth. Waste of time, computing power, and disk space. Thread closed.
P.S. In future threads be very careful about the use of the term, scab. Directed at an individual, it can earn you time off. Board rules.
P.S. In future threads be very careful about the use of the term, scab. Directed at an individual, it can earn you time off. Board rules.
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