Analysis of the CRJ-705 Dispute

Typical senior ALPA pilot.

"...just get on with your life and get a job at a real airline or another field."

Just so long as they dont touch your retirement right?

Sorry. I believe that ALPA still is bound by its duty of fair representation. I'll continue to push for a UNION that understands that JOBS should be ALPA's Job #1.
 

flyin2low

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Nov 4, 2002
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"Probably because they can earn more working in the plumbing department at Home Depot selling toilets than working here for first year commuter pay. It's terrible what this career has turned into."


Oldie,wasn't it that way when you paid your dues? Or maybe you never had to pay them? Maybe it's time for you to pay the piper.........
 

oldiebutgoody

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Aug 23, 2002
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On 7/10/2003 10:42:21 AM flyin2low wrote:


"Probably because they can earn more working in the plumbing department at Home Depot selling toilets than working here for first year commuter pay.  It''s terrible what this career has turned into."


Oldie,wasn''t it that way when you paid your dues? Or maybe you never had to pay them? Maybe it''s time for you to pay the piper.........

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The mainline furloughees have ALREADY paid more dues than just about anybody in this industry. Many are 15+ year pilots at U, and many NEVER even got off reserve in that time. Dave wants them to work at HIS commuter for first year pay. And ALL the mainline guys paid their dues long ago, just to get a job at U. The piper has been paid, my friend.
 

Bluestreak

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Oldie

ALPA is as much to blame for the situation at U as Wolf and Gangwall. Why wouldn't ALPA grant scope relief when Gangwall asked for it? Why didn't ALPA set up a flow through (up and down) with the WO? When ALPA finally granted a little scope relief, why didn't they demand the RJs stay within group? Where have you been flying over the past six years? Did you notice, Comair, CoEx, ASA, ACA, and American Eagle have taken over all the midsized cities that U mainline used to control? U could not compete because of your restrictive scope clause. Delta had the least restrictive scope clause of any major, and they have the highest paid mainline pilots. Also, Delta is in the best cash position of any of the majors following sept 11. Could this be because they are able to right size their fleet without being hindered by scope language?
 

oldiebutgoody

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Aug 23, 2002
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On 7/10/2003 10:21:36 AM Bluestreak wrote:

What if you got everything you wanted from the company? Where would we be right now?

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I don''t even have a clue what you mean by that. No matter what ALPA got back in ''98 this company would be where it is right now, because of inept management and nothing else. ALPA didn''t cause 9/11, nor did it cause Wolf and Gangwal to spend the company into the hole.
 

mrplanes

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Sep 17, 2002
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FYI:

When the company first approached ALPA long ago on the RJ issue the ALPA response was quite clear: Buy as many as you want as long as we have the SAME deal as the DAL pilots. Nothing more. Nothing less. The company wasn''t interested in that. Hence, if anyone thinks this is ALPA''s fault, they are mistaken. We would have been thrilled to have a management offer us the same deal as was on that property. And by the way, have ANY of the carriers with hundreds of RJ''s on their property made any money lately? Here''s another question: Have any of the carriers with NO RJ''s made any money lately?

This is a red herring. Seigel is attempting to replace the vast majority of U''s flying with low cost RJ''s. DAL, AMR, CAL, and NWA did NOT do that. They used RJ''s to supplement the mainline. The paradigm has shifted and the only carriers that are positioned for it are the one''s that don''t have RJ''s. Seigel can''t run an airline. And all this bickering over low cost lift is deflecting the attention from that fact. 78% loads and no profit? With what we have given him? Come on, focus on the ineptness of this management team.

mr
 

oldiebutgoody

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mrplanes hit the nail on the head! Sorry, Bluestreak, if your lousy commuter job turned into a career, but I hardly doubt that you entered the aviation field planning on flying a 35-50 seat prop plane your entire career. Neither did the 15 year guys that got furloughed at U.
 

passed_over

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Of course if U really wanted a reliable 70 seater they would look at the dash8-400. 70 seats comfortable and relable
 

ONTHESTREET

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I am a furloughed u pilot and ex W/O pilot. I have seen the rj issue from both sides of the fence.

I do not see this as a loss for ALPA. I do not agree with some of the thing ALPA has done but I feel that they are on target with this item.

The contract abuse and wholesale gutting of the mainline and transfer of flying to the regionals (Mesa) has got to be stopped. Since arriving with usair group I have seen the "regional jet" evolve into a "small jet" to a "medium small jet" to a "large small jet", the companies terms.

We now have what amounts to F-100''s and DC-9''s flying under the veil of "Regional jets" This would not be a problem if all these 70 and 90 seaters were not replacing dc-9''s and 737''s but they are. No one would have a problem with them flown on mainline.

I know all the W/O guys are going to jump all over me, but in the long run this is the best thing for them also. Unless they went to the regionals with the intention of spending their entire career there. I am sure there are a few that fall in this catagory, but I have never met one.

If ALPA, and the rest of the unions, lets this happen then the career of airline pilot will not be worth spit in the near future. And I doubt that there are many people that will endure 10 years of school and working thru the ranks for regional payscales.

Make no mistake, if we let this come to fruition the MESA payscale will be the norm not the horrible exception.

I have a buddy at Skywest, he came to visit and was talking about how they just signed a new contract to fly the 50 70 and 90 seat rj all for the same rate! I was flabbergasted, They actually signed a contract to fly up to 159 seats (give or take a few) all for 50 seat rj pay! Thay had been fed so much bull honkey from their company about how all the majors are flying all types for the same pay now.(75/76, airbus 319,320,321 etc.) That they actually started to believe it. I pointed out that they had just agreed to fly a 757 for 50 seat RJ rates. He grew quiet about the subject then.

So to all the pilots who still think that 70 and 90 seat rjs should be flown by whoever for whatever rates, just remenber, there is a good chance that when you finally move from your rj to a 757, you wont be getting a pay raise.

This transfer of flying if not stopped will forever doom you to flying for your regional rates. Once we let it happen it will happen time and time again. Everytime a contract comes up.......whoops......there goes your flying over to podunk airlines.

As a pilot you spend almost as much time in school and gaining experience as a doctor, and more time in recurrent training than a doctor does........do you want to go thru all that for 60,000 a year, or 150,000 a year? The choice is our to make.


My solution? Get rid of the W/o''s of the industry. If you are employed by usairways group, you should be on one senority list, period. As a new hire you fly the RJ or SJ or LSJ or whatever thay want to call it, when your senority holds a 757 you bid the 757. Simple, fair, and does not allow the company to monkey around with pitting rj guys against mainline.

If it has USAirways is any form painted on the side of the airplane it should flown by USairways pilots! ALG, PDT,and PSA should be combined on one list by date of hire and then added to the mainline list. End of discussion, no more rj problem no more endless fighting among regional and mainline, and I will even spend a couple of days helping to strip all the USAir paint off of Johnny O''s airplanes and wish him well on his own!

If we survive as USAirways, Good, if we fail as USAirways, well at least we didn''t self destruct due to sibling rivalry.


Kind of long but had to vent a bit!!!!! LOL :)
 

Old PSA

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Regardless of how you view the course that ALPA is taking, it is really distressing to read a news release issued by US Airways directly attacking the stance of ALPA''s MEC. It would appear that the management of US Airways only wish is to create discontent and discord within the union. This hardly stands as an example of good labor relations. Perhaps managements view of themselves is so myopic as to not allow for any other point of view.
 

A320 Driver

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MRPLANES an ONTHESTREET make excellent points. The contract abuse continues and will forever until we stand up and say ENOUGH. I''m pretty sure that''s what just happened.
I''m sick of having a bullseye on my back. Put it on managements back...that''s where it belongs. They made this problem, by God they can fix it!

A320 Driver


GIVE IT BACK!!!!!
 

Walmartgreeter

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Mar 6, 2003
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Clue, I get your point, but disagree about the top. Market forces are driving wages down as we speak. When the time comes, as it will, those same forces will drive them up again. Capping the top is akin to, well, the only country left doing it is Cuba. All boats ARE carried by the rising tide, I really believe that. Set your ultimate goals low and you have nowhere to go. Again, your point is well taken.....the bottom end of a professional group should not be left out of the equation. Best.
 

ClueByFour

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Aug 20, 2002
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You could solve many of the problems that lead management to seek the RJ divide by flattening the compensation curve.

A first year RJ FO should not be on food stamps at $18,000.

A 20 year widebody captain should not be north of $250k.

The trick is to cut out the silly stuff at the top end and upgrade the guy on the bottom end. Do that, and management won''t complain and fight as much about flying all equipment on a single "mainline" entity.

Of course, since ALPA is in the business of eating it''s young, this will never happen.