Army Sucides highest in 20 years

[Veritas]

Who said it was policy? You did in a way when you commented on 'indiscriminate killings" as though our soldiers target civilians on a routine basis. You have retreated in this last post by rendering it acts of 'renegade soliders'...

Oh, and who is 'East US'. Is that some left wing lingo? Or a new term for the 'vast right wing conspiracy'?

Horse manure.

It is obvious that you did not read the message to which I was replying and are reading my comments out of their proper context. You ought to read the entire thread before hitting the reply button.

 

[UAL_TECH]

That's so right. But what makes this war different is - it shouldn't have been waged. The war that should have been waged and manned and stuck with was the war in Afghanistan. Bush and company had a hard on for Saddam from the day he said "So help me God" in January, 2001. They used the terrorist attacks of 9/11 to stroke their hard ons for Saddam...even though Saddam had nothing to do with those attacks, this administrations case of blue balls was so severe that soon Saddam was a bigger threat and needed to be stopped more than the group and leader of that group who actually DID do something to us. So the blood of the collateral damage in Iraq rests on G.W. Bush's hands. Wish I could be a fly on the wall at the Pearly Gates when W presents his case for getting in.

No Comment...

 

[Veritas]

And not advancing our goals......I thought it was a failure over there...thats what Pelosi said.

It is not just a failure, it is a miserable failure.

However, I do subscribe to Colin Powell's belief that once we broke it we own it.

We can't just pull out and leave behind a power vacuum for the Iranians to fill. We must help the Iraqis establish a stable government so that we can get the hell out of there. Alienating the Iraqi population by desecrating their holly book, by proselytizing Christianity and by revenge killings of unarmed women, children and the elderly hinders our exit strategy and prolongs the quagmire.

 

[UAL_TECH]

It is not just a failure, it is a miserable failure.

However, I do subscribe to Colin Powell's belief that once we broke it we own it.

We can't just pull out and leave behind a power vacuum for the Iranians to fill. We must help the Iraqis establish a stable government so that we can get the hell out of there. Alienating the Iraqi population by desecrating their holly book, by proselytizing Christianity and by revenge killings of unarmed women, children and the elderly hinders our exit strategy and prolongs the quagmire.

Maybe they should lighten up and stop killing us for BS reasons.
This is now a 'media' war in which the true combatants will be daemonized at every opportunity.
Still killing over a 'cartoon'.

Pull out 'today', leave a vacuum and let the next generation deal with it. :down:
Or the 'Merican' sheeple deal with it and make logical decisions.

Yea, that is going to happen...

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

It is not just a failure, it is a miserable failure.

However, I do subscribe to Colin Powell's belief that once we broke it we own it.

We can't just pull out and leave behind a power vacuum for the Iranians to fill. We must help the Iraqis establish a stable government so that we can get the hell out of there. Alienating the Iraqi population by desecrating their holly book, by proselytizing Christianity and by revenge killings of unarmed women, children and the elderly hinders our exit strategy and prolongs the quagmire.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Sorry Veritas,

But...OH YES WE CAN PULL OUT !!

Iraq is forever broken, and can NEVER be "fixed"

"Fixing" Iraq, is akin to the Majority of TUL/AMT's "growing a PAIR"...NEVER gonna' happen !

"Fixing" Iraq, is akin to the TWU Acting like a REAL Big Boy Union, and standing up to AA........................NEVER gonna' Happen !

Veritas,............It is NEVER to late to admit when a Mistake was Made.

Obviously one WAS made, and the sooner we admit it, and REVERSE our actions, the Better !!!


Innocent Iraqi BLOOD is all over.....El-CHIMPO/Dirty DICK Cheney/Condi Rice/Donald Rumsfeld/Paul Wolfowitz and Colin Powell. In fact, They are "Swimming in it"

The saddest part is, that ONLY Powell knows it !

 

[delldude]

Its ok for Christians to come over shed their blood and do what the Muslims won't but just don't try and convert us while you're dying for us.
Guy passes out some coins and they want his head........you don't subscribe to Islam and they'll take your head.
Whats wrong with this picture?

 

[Redbird]

Horse manure.

It is obvious that you did not read the message to which I was replying and are reading my comments out of their proper context. You ought to read the entire thread before hitting the reply button.

Thank you for the instructions.

The charge still stands. You termed in 'indiscriminate' meaning the civilians were not any different than combatants and then you relegated your comment to merely renegade soldiers which is a retreat from the first comment.

Also, fwiw, someone else noted that the wars of late are different from WWII. Definitely. But it is not that recent. The guy who replaced me in my FAC outfit picked up a nice kid enroute to the airfield just east of Saigon. Little kid.. as Gary shifted between 2nd and 3rd in the jeep, the 'nice kid' yanked Gary's .38 out and pumped 4 holes into Gary. As I mentioned earlier, there is a lot of 'not right' in such a theatre. Not right that 'civilians' get killed but not all civilians are civilians. And when you don't know if the old lady or young kid is going to pull the pin on grenade, it makes one a bit more than jumpy. Doesn't make it right on either side but does go part of the way explaining what happens.

But as to your charge against the soldiers, not much 'veritas' from Veritas. Just opinion and not very well informed opinion at that...

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Thank you for the instructions.

The charge still stands. You termed in 'indiscriminate' meaning the civilians were not any different than combatants and then you relegated your comment to merely renegade soldiers which is a retreat from the first comment.

Also, fwiw, someone else noted that the wars of late are different from WWII. Definitely. But it is not that recent. The guy who replaced me in my FAC outfit picked up a nice kid enroute to the airfield just east of Saigon. Little kid.. as Gary shifted between 2nd and 3rd in the jeep, the 'nice kid' yanked Gary's .38 out and pumped 4 holes into Gary. As I mentioned earlier, there is a lot of 'not right' in such a theatre. Not right that 'civilians' get killed but not all civilians are civilians. And when you don't know if the old lady or young kid is going to pull the pin on grenade, it makes one a bit more than jumpy. Doesn't make it right on either side but does go part of the way explaining what happens.

But as to your charge against the soldiers, not much 'veritas' from Veritas. Just opinion and not very well informed opinion at that...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Redbird,
I can sympathize with your story about your friend in "Nam",...however the BIGGER/BIGGEST picture about "Nam"(like Iraq)........We NEVER should have set foot in that SH!T hole to begin with !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I "enlisted" in the US Navy in 1965. I see that experience as a positive experience in my life.

Back then, I'f I had been ordered into "Nam", I'm not sure whether or not I would have went, and I'll croak, Never knowing for SURE what my decision would have been.

BUT,

Knowing what I know NOW about "Nam"/Iraq,.....I can definitely tell you what I would have done.
I would have PROUDLY headed for Canada, and NOT have given it a Second Though !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I honestly CAN NOT think of a more Sadder/Regretable instance, than Any poor Unfortunate person, who lost Life/Limb in Iraq, because of that F***ING MORONIC, IMBECILIC A$$ HOLE....EL-CHIMPO(bush) :down: :down: :down:

 

[Cosworth]

Its ok for Christians to come over shed their blood and do what the Muslims won't but just don't try and convert us while you're dying for us.
Guy passes out some coins and they want his head........you don't subscribe to Islam and they'll take your head.
Whats wrong with this picture?

There is a whole lot wrong with the picture. Three questions. Knowing this why did we go in and who thought we could change 4,000 years of history and what makes you think given our lack of success that we have any chance of being successful?

The fundamentalist freak out over a cartoon and some coins. Do you really think we can change that type of cultural mind set in our life time much less our children's? Can we afford (financially) to continue with this endeavor?

 

[Redbird]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Back then, I'f I had been ordered into "Nam", I'm not sure whether or not I would have went, and I'll croak, Never knowing for SURE what my decision would have been.

BUT,

Knowing what I know NOW about "Nam"/Iraq,.....I can definitely tell you what I would have done.
I would have PROUDLY headed for Canada, and NOT have given it a Second Though !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I honestly CAN NOT think of a more Sadder/Regretable instance, than Any poor Unfortunate person, who lost Life/Limb in Iraq, because of that F***ING MORONIC, IMBECILIC A$$ HOLE....EL-CHIMPO(bush) :down: :down: :down:

First, welcome home. And thanks for serving.

second, we see things differently and that is okay. the forum pushing and shoving is tantamount to little in the big scheme of things. I do wish that more commentary would focus on the issues without the name calling and insults. It detracts, IMHO. (I will concede a similar contempt for the likes of Reid, Schumer, Biden and Durbin)

The difference between our experience and the one today is that this is truly a worldwide conflict being played out on a mostly localized battlefield. And it depends on which end of the glass one is looking through. I prefer to take the jihadists on at a distant battlefield which some see as little more than a recruiting tool for jihadists. The problem with the latter is the jihadists don't really need any reason to war on us. It is religious for them and regardless of where western society is, they will be warring. Europe will soon be engulfed with those demanding sharia law. And that will incite conflict.

And I have no illusions about how the last 7 yr have played out except one can not offer proof that Kerry or Gore would have wound up at any other point. Remember, Jimmy Carter's misunderstanding of the use of force was the precipitant for the Iranian revolution. And now Obama seems to think one can reason with a mad dog without getting bitten. Good luck. Jimmy tried it. Now a quarter of a century later, seems many in the country are willing to try it again. It is not going to be pretty.

I could be wrong. I just possibly could be wrong.

 

[Cosworth]

I am not old enough (by a long shot) to remember WWII and I was not old enough for Viet Nam either. I have read about both. I do not know the accuracy of the reports but the consensus I got seemed to be that at the time of WWII and nearly 70 years after the fact the war is viewed as a just war by nearly everyone. We were attacked by Japan and Germany/Italy were running rampant over Europe. It was a war that clearly needed to be fought. One can argue of how it started and whether or not it could have been prevented but I cannot recall hearing anyone with any credibility say that we should have remained out of the war. The Human and financial toll was huge but no one even uses that as a reason for not going.

Look at Korea, Viet Nam, Gulf I and II. Korea and Viet Nam were and are unpopular wars. Whether that is because we lost (or at the very least did not win) or whether it is because the premise for the US entering them was flawed I do not know. Perhaps they are inter-related in that you could not have one with out the other. We lost because the reasoning was bad and because the reasoning was bad we lost. Gulf I was successful (sort of) and has a slightly favorable opinion although you do not hear it talked about much. Perhaps that is because it is closely linked to Gulf II since it left Hussein in power (I believe Bush I did the right thing by stopping where he did).

If history is any indication of the future, Gulf II will fail and fail big. If we use Korea and Nam as a benchmark, Gulf II used flawed (I'm being generous) reasoning (again a generous term) and as such success is unlikely. The people in Iraq don;t want what we are selling and the US people are tired of being an Iraqi whipping boy. We also have a few issues of our own that we need to deal with.

There were plenty of atrocities in WW II. The US troops had their fair share though no where close to what the Japanese and the Germans did. I know the Russians were not too kind to the Nazi POW's since there was virtually no love lost their. I think it was accepted because it was not reported like things are now (we have an electronic media that can go from action to print in seconds). Even had the info come out, WW II was viewed as a just war and while the information may have been unpalatable I think it would have been accepted as a cost of war.

The info coming out of the ME now just adds to the distaste that the US has for the region already.

I do agree (to an extent) it what someone posted about if you break it you own it. I know that when the US withdraws from Iraq, whether it be in 1 year or 100 years, that the ensuing carnage will probably be quite bad and it will be our fault. I do not have an answer for that one aside from saying that the duration of our stay will not affect the out come. It will affect this nation in ways that I fear to contemplate but I believe Ira will always be Iraq and our presence or lack there of will not affect the eventual out come.

 

[KCFlyer]

I prefer to take the jihadists on at a distant battlefield which some see as little more than a recruiting tool for jihadists. The problem with the latter is the jihadists don't really need any reason to war on us. It is religious for them and regardless of where western society is, they will be warring. Europe will soon be engulfed with those demanding sharia law. And that will incite conflict.

And I have no illusions about how the last 7 yr have played out except one can not offer proof that Kerry or Gore would have wound up at any other point. Remember, Jimmy Carter's misunderstanding of the use of force was the precipitant for the Iranian revolution. And now Obama seems to think one can reason with a mad dog without getting bitten. Good luck. Jimmy tried it. Now a quarter of a century later, seems many in the country are willing to try it again. It is not going to be pretty.

I could be wrong. I just possibly could be wrong.

It's a damn shame that we are battling the jihadists on the soil of a country that DID NOTHING to the US. And because we decided to bring Iraq into play..it certainly HAS resulted in the recruiting increases for jihadists. Better to have fought them on the distant battlefield of the country that supported and sheltered them.

While I have no doubt that Gore would have retaliated just as swiftly as Bush did, I also believe he would have retaliated more severely than Bush did to the ones that attacked us. I believe he would not have looked for a reason to invade a country that did nothing to us, unless that country began supplying our enemy. I certainly don't think he would have gone into another country while giving the middle finger to the rest of the world. I believe he would have had our troops wipe every last remnant of the Taliban and al qaeda off the face of the earth - then brought the troops home.

And one has to wonder - if a war would have been waged against those that attacked us...and our pursuit of those that attacked us had been relentless - what message would that have sent to future terrorists? IMHO, it would have clearly sent the message that if you attack the US, there will be hell to pay. By Bush shifting his focus AWAY from the one that attacked us and focused in on an "easier" target in Iraq, the message that was sent was that it's okay to attack the US...if we can't find you after a year, we'll just go find someone else to f*ck with.

 

[delldude]

The info coming out of the ME now just adds to the distaste that the US has for the region already.

Last I heard,it looks like its working for once.....

But OTOH.....has there been much,if any 'good' news reported from Iraq?I mean of all the things over there....not very many stories carrying 'good' news?Not to make the president look bad mind you...no concerted effort there.

While I have no doubt that Gore would have retaliated just as swiftly as Bush did, I also believe he would have retaliated more severely than Bush did to the ones that attacked us.

But what of all that pesky ordnance and Global Warming?

And one has to wonder - if a war would have been waged against those that attacked us...and our pursuit of those that attacked us had been relentless - what message would that have sent to future terrorists?

Thought it was and Osama and his band of merry pranksters booked for safer haven.Why die for a good cause when you can run?

 

[KCFlyer]

But what of all that pesky ordnance and Global Warming?

YOu know, If Bush had not been awarded the presidency in 200, what impact would he have had from the outside concerning the terror attacks of 9/11? About the same as Gore. Not every president is like Bushie...who wouldn't even let terrorist attacks on our soil ruin his hard on for Iraq. He was going in there, whether 9/11 had happened or not. Do you think Gore would have witnessed 9/11 and said "Wow, that was bad, we have to reduce our carbon footprint"?

Thought it was and Osama and his band of merry pranksters booked for safer haven.Why die for a good cause when you can run?

Then our pursuit wasn't relentless. It WAS from November 2001 until March 2003...at which time we decided that even though bin laden was still alive...that even though the Taliban wasn't eliminated...even though al qaeda was still around - Saddam Hussein posed a bigger threat, so the bulk of our troops were pulled from that mission and shifted to Iraq. Yeah...we had bin laden on the run. I think Gore would have troops pursue him until he died from exhaustion from all the running. Bush gave him a breather...witness the resurgence of the Taliban. Bush...the epitome of ineptness in a "war president".

 

[delldude]

Gore would make money on the carbon credits he sold the taliban.

Gore,Gore.Gore.....I don't think he would be any better or worse...but then again....we'll never know.