Atlantic Coast Airlines vs United

[rwills]

Looks like United and ACA are still some distance away from coming to terms.

ACA states in their press releases that it is pursuing alternative revenue streams should negotiations w/united not work out.

Anyone out there have any idea what these would be? starting up as a stand alone regional operator? signing on with another major?

 

[ual06]

I feel that UA and ACA are simply playing an intense game of "hardball" and will depart the
field as friends. But, with US returning to its roots as a regional carrier and its connection to
the Star Alliance, it may be that the big sticking point is term of contract.

 

[WO/drone]

Rumor heard from a recent ex ACA employee is that ACA has plans to shrink and go it alone again if needed. They have the experience. Is there a market for a unaligned independent regoinal? Any ACA people have a comment.

 

[smfav8r]

I worked for ACA many years ago, before the RJ craze, I quit in early 94...anyway, the same thing happened with the UAL contract back then...UAL and ACA couldn''t come to terms and signed a last minute deal.......but now with all those RJ''s, ACA can be very attractive to someone else...and I can''t beleave no-one has mentioned DAL yet....DAL is slowing down the RJ''s to Comair and ASA....they have already started using Chataqua in MCO, why not beef up ACA in the northeast!!!! The flying goes to the lowest bidder!!!!

 

[whlinder]

UA/Star needs someone to feed IAD. US Air can''t take over the east coast Star feeding immediately.

 

[diogenes]

I'm betting on a headline that reads "UA replaces ACA with US"

US is heading that way in a hurry.

Just guessing;
US RJ's at Mesa, the wholly owneds, and MDA replace ACA.

US international flying goes to Star/UA.

US transcon goes UA (that's already beginning under codeshare)

A pathetic remnant of US mainline is absorbed by UA - no major seniority issues as a sticking point this time.

And best of all, ALL US unions are, and have been, in on the deal.

 

[JI Guy]

Bob Ferguson is ready, I believe!

 

[DLFlyer31]

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On 7/7/2003 4:56:34 AM smfav8r wrote:

ACA can be very attractive to someone else...and I can''t beleave no-one has mentioned DAL yet....DAL is slowing down the RJ''s to Comair and ASA....they have already started using Chataqua in MCO, why not beef up ACA in the northeast!!!! The flying goes to the lowest bidder!!!!

----------------​

There''s a reason why DAL is slowing down RJ deliveries to Comair/ASA. DAL is approaching a saturation point with the small RJ''s. They simply don''t need that many more in the 50 seat and less category. Next year, Comair/ASA will not take delivery of a single 50 seat RJ, but they will take delivery of 23 70 seat RJ''s. DL needs more RJ''s in the 70-100 seat category to supplement mainline, compete more effectively with FL''s 717''s, grow new routes and upgrade routes where the small RJ''s are overloaded.

However, I can''t imagine DL using ACA to fly planes in the 70-100 seat range. The 70 seaters will likely stay with Comair/ASA and the new 90-100 seater will be placed in mainline as DALPA will not/should not let them go to the regional affiliates.

Sure DL might pick up a few planes from ACA, but there''s no way that DL would need/want anything in the scale of UAL''s current operation with ACA.

 

[Farley]

In my opinion, United''s decision to put Express flying up to the "lowest bidder" will give them results that are consistent with what the government gets when it goes for the lowest bidder. Things will get done, but not without a lot of problems. Rather than trying to improve the existing product, and make it more "seamless", they have confirmed their committment to having an operation with many seams.
I always was amused by United''s use of the word "seamless in it''s Express operation. It never was seamless, and I guess it never will be.
My opinions only. I hope it all works out.

 

[DLFlyer31]

----------------
On 7/9/2003 7:51:42 AM smfav8r wrote:

DLFlyer31

I hope your right and DAL mainline pilots get to fly the bigger RJ''s...they should be flying the 50 seaters also....not much smaller than the DC9''s they flew 15 years ago...which leads to my point.....till ALL the regionals get better pay scales, it will be hard for management of any airline to pass up a code share....it''s just economics!!!

ACA is already flying the DorkJet for DAL out of LGA...why not more....especially if it''s cheaper than Comair/ASA...why not downsize Comair/ASA for a code share with ACA if it''s cheaper....not any different than getting rid of DC9''s or 737''s at any mainline and replacing them with RJ''s.....just an opinion of a guy who''s been furoughed way too many times!!!

Keep the dirty side down and the pointy end foward!!!

----------------​

I can''t imagine that DALPA would ever allow the 90-100 seater to go to a regional. Especially if DL management wants concessions, part of the bargain will be that the 90-100 seaters stay at mainline. The only possible scenario I can imagine would be if DALPA gets greedy and sells the 90-100 seaters away in order to keep the higher pay on the big metal (757/767/777). This is exactly what happened in 2000 with the CRJ700. DALPA went for top pay, but gave up any hope of ever flying the 70 seater.

Why not more ACA if they''re cheaper? Well, first of all, they''re not necessarily cheaper. This is likely one of the realizations that UA has reached also and why the negotiations between UA and ACA have turned so nasty.

In fact, everything I have heard points to ACA being DL''s most expensive regional, which might explain why ACA has seen NO growth on the DL side, while Comair,ASA,SkyWest and Chautauqua have all grown.

There''s another reason why I see DL restricting how much they farm out to other regionals. Comair and ASA may not always have the cheapest costs, however they are wholly-owned by DL. Any profits they generate, go to DL and DL alone. ACA, Chautauqua and SkyWest are not wholly-owned and operate on fee-per-departure schemes. They may have lower costs, but much of the profit from those lower costs ends up in the regionals pockets and not DL''s pockets. In the past many of the major''s tolerated this, however times are changing.

For instance, Comair''s cost have risen substantially over the past few years and the Comair pilots (after the nasty strike) have better pay than most of their regional counterparts. However, that hasn''t stopped DL from growing Comair at a tremendous speed over the last year. Simultaneously, DL''s growth on the SkyWest and especially ACA side has slowed. The only place where Comair lost out was in MCO. Because of the extremely low-yield nature of MCO, Comair''s recent cost increases and lack of a small RJ (DL wanted a 35-40 seat plane for thinner routes) cost them the MCO hub which was farmed to Chautauqua.

So for ACA, they''d better get an agreement with UA, because DL isn''t going to be their knight in shining armor.

 

[smfav8r]

DLFlyer31

I hope your right and DAL mainline pilots get to fly the bigger RJ''s...they should be flying the 50 seaters also....not much smaller than the DC9''s they flew 15 years ago...which leads to my point.....till ALL the regionals get better pay scales, it will be hard for management of any airline to pass up a code share....it''s just economics!!!

ACA is already flying the DorkJet for DAL out of LGA...why not more....especially if it''s cheaper than Comair/ASA...why not downsize Comair/ASA for a code share with ACA if it''s cheaper....not any different than getting rid of DC9''s or 737''s at any mainline and replacing them with RJ''s.....just an opinion of a guy who''s been furoughed way too many times!!!

Keep the dirty side down and the pointy end foward!!!

 

[smfav8r]

DLFlyer31

I hope you are correct in every statement you made !!! What scares me is history!!! As the saying goes "History repeats itself"....Code sharing has grown at every airline....

Lets put it this way...I was flying DAL passengers on a Transmeridian aircraft with an Aeropostal Logo on it, as part of a code share in the mid 90''s out of Venezuela!!!! Delta was code sharing with a Venezuelan airline that was not allowed to fly into the United States...so that particular airline...piggy backed a US carrier''s operational authority...that airline was Transmeridian....actually headquartered in Lithia Springs, GA outside of Atlanta....Kinda amusing...isn''t it????

The funny thing is....now it''s 2003....DAL still has that code share with Aeropostal....Aeropostal is still not allowed to fly into the US and now they piggy back another supplemental carrier called Falcon Air Express.....some much for purchasing a ticket so you know who your flying on!!!!

My point for all this is...it all comes down to the bottom line....saving money comes first....management may be tripping over dollar bills to pick up nickels....but the nickel is what''s in front of there face!!!!!

I could care less if DAL picks up ACA or not....but it might be a possiblity....a nickel here and a nickel there!!! That''s the philosophy!!!

Keep the Dirty Side Down and Pointy End Foward!!!!

 

[Cosmo]

The announcement by United this morning of a 10-year United-Trans States deal for up to 25 50-seat RJs to be used at ORD and IAD can''t be good news for ACA''s prospects of remaining as a United Express carrier. Interestingly, the announcement said that these RJs would be in place "within months."

Here''s the United press release.

I would guess that ACA is even more seriously exploring its alternatives now!

 

[whlinder]

United Adds Regional Carrier At Dulles
Atlantic Coast to Lose Flights to Trans States

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...-2003Jul10.html

 

[Farley]

Once again United is helping people to start their careers over again at the bottom (ie Westair, Air Wisconsin, and now ACA employees). Nice work.