Bankruptcy's Siren Song

[crazyincanton]

This is just ridiculous. The company's plan must be to throw something absurdly unpalatable to everyone, and if it sticks, great. If not, which is what I think they believe will happen, then bk or liquidation. No one is going to give up 15-20,000 per year. Now we are definitely at the point of being able to make that kind of money anywhere. Why stay on this sinking ship?

 

[U 737 PILOT]

I have to agree with you Pitbull. Based upon the company's number of labor concessions of $800-900 million, there is no way that they will achieve that short of bankruptcy or liquidation. If it's true that they want $400 million from the pilots, that leaves another $400 million between the rest of us. Divided among 25,000 employees, that amounts to about $15-16,000 per year. Who can afford to give that kind of money? I think this whole thing is one big charade. They know we can't give that ridiculous amount that they are asking and they're going through negotiations just so that they can blame the bk on the unions.

400 Million from the pilots !!!!! .......... HELLO !!! ...Thats an average of $ 120,000 dollars per year........ per pilot !!!!! First Officers would have to pay the company to work here !!!!

 

[Tarheel]

$15,000 pay cut? Has the company come to each group and said it is cutting salaires by a certain amount? When it says it is looking for a certain amount from each group, that money is not solely coming from pay. Aren't they looking to reopen the contracts to allow for more efficiency or a reduction in benefits?

 

[PITbull]

Well, if I have to give $15,000 back to the company as a F/A then that leaves me with making less than when I started 11 years ago. NO>NO>NO. Shut this friggin company down. This is high way robbery and I can barely make ends meet as it is I and we as reserves have already given a 38% pay cut. That is very close to 40 of our income. Go ahead and let them hire the little 19 year olds. Will I get a job somewhere else. YES!!!!!!!! I would like to see Glass, Bronner and Lakefield live on $20,000.00 a year!!!!! :angry:

Kt,

Obviously, if we were to share it evenly, than the bottom half would go finanically under the bus. So, one would have to deduce that the more senior working f/as will have to take even a harder hit.

If Medical is on the table again, (which I believe it is) than this will be a major hit to get to what bogy number the co. has set for AFA. Increase in medical was already set for increases going forward every year, with the biggest changes in 2006. I suspect, with these NEW concessions that these increases will be even higher starting Jan. 2005.

 

[Doc]

I am sorry to hear that some of these people think we airline employee’s are so stupid that we could not find work else where, Make no mistake I like my JOB but will not concede any more. Yes it would be a change but it would be a wanted change. In the health care profession alone there is a mountain of Job’s that pay more with half of the schooling that some of us have. You non airliners that come on here and tell us to give just so you can have your cheep tickets and yes they are way to cheep.

Did any of you read the USA today article the other day it was a very interesting article about the poor shape of the airline industry and hinted at REGULATION don’t think for a minute the our government is going to let all these big airlines fail because it would effect every small town from Boston to LA…. ticket prices would rise from the lack of competition. At worst I think there will be some consolidating and maybe one casualty. It could be either U or UAL but who knows none of know.

so I will keep working and doing my job until somebody tells me to stay home.

 

[NeedForSpeedNFS]

I guess that spells it out pretty clearly! Cannot wait to read the "Concession Stand" folks' reply to this very credible report!!

The concession stand is closed!!!!!!!!! What else are we to do??? Everyone in this company(the workers) have given enough!!! give....give....give...., for what?? so this management team can squander everything that was given to them??? Also, don't give me this "BS", at least you have a job, crap!!!!I know a lot of people may not understand the following.......SHUT it down, SELL us, MERGE us!!!!!! DO SOMETHING!!!!!! Whether we have a job or not, let the remaining 28,000 employees of this company get on with their lives!!!! GOOD DAY.....MORE LATER!!!!

 

[PITbull]

Bob,

If group 1 (in your scenerio) is the majority, than it will pass. If they are not, then it will fail.

Just like any vote taken in a democratic election or ballot on referendums. Same principles apply.

No one is that altruistic. Even those candidates who run on protecting Medicare and having a national health care system. To say everyone should vote for these kinds of candidates just for the elderly issue, won't happen. Its just plain unrealistic.

Placing "guilt" on the employee, IMO, is just for folks like you to save your FF miles. <_<

 

[NeedForSpeedNFS]

Mercy,Mercy ,mercy ..... now why did I expect to read that reply??

Repeet ... what have You calculated your Unemployment Benifits to be in $? And let me ask you what you have found your Cobra Medical Insurance Benefits are going to cost? Given the increase in fuel costs .. are you going to have to consider the increased costs of commuting to your new job (if you find one)? Will you have to relocate? What will that cost??

I tell you what! You have been very vocal on finishing off this Company! Please address the rest of us about your plan after the "Liquidation" that you embrace actually happens.

1) What do you consider your job oppurtunities to be after "L"?
2) Will you find work in your current location, or will you be displaced? At what cost?
3) What wage do you expect to earn at your new employer, in relation to what you earn now. (looking for a wage reduction % here)
4) What sort of benefits would you expect to receive at an entry level position at a new employer?
5) Do you believe that your history/record at US Airways will be a factor in your application for employment?

Just a few questions to be considered. I am curious about your thoughts on these very basic considerations .. I am sure many others in this delimma that are not as strong -minded as You would appreciate your thoughts!

As for Me ... I would do my Best to help this Company survive.

2B

Where on earth are you from???? PLUTO??? This company is on the verge of collapse! Your asking repeet about medical benefits?, Increase in FUEL costs?? Commuting to another job?? Do you realize how many people are commuting now? You seem to believe that this job is the only thing left in peoples' lives
1) MOVE ON!!
2)In the aviation industry, most of us realize you must be prepared to move on
3)you assume a reduction. Depending upon your skills, may very well be a raise!!! If your res, f/a,utility, yes, your probably correct in you assumption of a pay reduction.
4) This is pure ignorance. EVERY company in todays environment is going away from any type of benefits. Besides, the way we are going here at U, we may as well be "new" employees!!
5)Many US employees are jumping ship, going to other airlines, and OTHER companies

As for you.....You keep doing your best to help this ship from sinking!!! This company is raping you, and you just keep coming back for more!!! If you think all their is to life but usairways, I truly feel sorry for you! GOOD DAY!!!!....MORE LATER!!!!

 

[NeedForSpeedNFS]

Java,

I believe we are going into BK.

DITTO

 

[PITbull]

That was a nice cheap shot. Shows how little you know. I am one fax away from elite status on ANY of the legacy carriers. Understand this PITbull my life is ultimately UNAFFECTED if US folds.

It also shows the hypocracy of the current labor leadership. Following your logic, throwing a Sr. F/A who 2 kids in college under the economic bus is perfectly OK so long as it serves the long term goals of the AFA/CWA. I thought labor was about people. Bargaining for common good of the INDIVIDUALS in the group! Not the collection of dues and arcane goals of national organization with goals and agendas that direct conflict with those of the locals or individual company.

See to me it's NOT OK! Your Moral & Ethical obligation is to the employees of US AIrways and by extension US Airways itself. Everybody else can go to hell IMO.

I'm not interested in Pat Friend and her agenda or the politics and the grand scheme of the AFA/CWA. To me this is about the best interests of union members who work for US Airways. Keeping US open and allowing the INDIVIDUALS the maximum number of options in deciding their future.

Bob,

I am the senior f/a with 2 kids, in college and single.

What you fail horribly to conceptualize is that the employees (unionized workers) will ultimately decide. Not Pat Friend; not AFA-CWA, not union representatives.

You have said on these boards so very often is that you want U to survive for "selfish reasons". You admitted that. Now, you want us to forget you said it.

You of all people, IMO, have never shown one ounce of any kind of altruism on these boards. However, you love to preach those actions.

Cheap shot you say? I call'zm as I see'zm. You dish it out...you eat it.

 

[mweiss]

...management cannot ... capatilize on the over $1 BILLION dollars it has already extracted from the employees...

OK, I've heard this one so many times it's beginning to get ridiculous. Let's look at that number for a moment, shall we? US has 25K union employees. These concessions we're talking about were agreed to about a year ago. So, dividing $1B by 25,000 employees would mean that every union employee gave (on average)$40K back to the company last year. Considering how many complaints I've been reading here, I find it hard to believe that the average union employee was making much more than $40K before the concessions, so something doesn't add up.

Might it be, perchance, that the $1B is amortized over several years? And, if so, might it be, perchance, that the actual dollars in cost reductions associated with concessions to date have amounted to substantially less than $1B?

If so, then perhaps the reason management cannot capitalize on the $1B is because management doesn't have access to the $1B?

Just a thought...

 

[PITbull]

OK, I've heard this one so many times it's beginning to get ridiculous. Let's look at that number for a moment, shall we? US has 25K union employees. These concessions we're talking about were agreed to about a year ago. So, dividing $1B by 25,000 employees would mean that every union employee gave (on average)$40K back to the company last year. Considering how many complaints I've been reading here, I find it hard to believe that the average union employee was making much more than $40K before the concessions, so something doesn't add up.

Might it be, perchance, that the $1B is amortized over several years? And, if so, might it be, perchance, that the actual dollars in cost reductions associated with concessions to date have amounted to substantially less than $1B?

If so, then perhaps the reason management cannot capitalize on the $1B is because management doesn't have access to the $1B?

Just a thought...

Mweiss,

The $1.2 Billion from labor is counting all 47,000 employees back in 2001. We are now approx 28,000. The cost savings was calculated $1.2 Billion PER YEAR. We all know, we went through the process to get there twice.

You're thought process on the calculation is incorrect.

 

[mweiss]

...don’t think for a minute the our government is going to let all these big airlines fail because it would effect every small town from Boston to LA…. ticket prices would rise from the lack of competition.

For a short time, maybe. That would be an unsustainable condition.

Let's assume that US, UA, DL, and NW all filed 7 tomorrow. Sure, that'd hurt for a while, because there would be a shortage of capacity. But I can assure you that AA, CO, WN, B6, F9, FL, and TZ (did I miss any?) would go on an expanding frenzy to fill the void. We'd be looking at months, not years, before everything was basically back where it was before those four disappeared.

Let's face it...did international travel shrivel and die because PA went bankrupt? Nope. Suddenly, UA became a major Pacific player, and AA and DL picked up a great deal of Europe service. The industry has more players than necessary to maintain a competitive landscape.

 

[PITbull]

Bob,

YOU are not a union leader, and you chose NOT to be part of a union organization.

I very well know that you know, you are not altruistic. I repeat, you just love to preach to others those actions....

If you were, if you could, that you would, and we should, etc, etc, etc...

 

[BoeingBoy]

mweiss,

You're partially right. The previous concessions averaged the $1-$1.2 billion per year over the life of the ATSB loan. So it is entirely possible that less than that has been realized in the first year after emerging from bankruptcy.

However, you have to realize what that means - to make the average, some years in the future will have more than the $1-$1.2 billion in savings from the previous concessions.

A prime example is the pilot's DB pension. The 2003 contribution was forecast to be less than the cost of the new plan. However, 2004 & 2005 contributions were forecast to be considerably less than for the new plan.

In short, the company can expect more annual savings in the future from the concessions already given than they realized in this first year. But, hey, why not try to get more concessions anyway.

Jim