New proposed TSA regulation. - No pilot will be allowed to board the aircraft with arms and legs attached to the body. Such appendages could be used to transform the aircraft into a flying bomb.
Be careful, TSA loose (for crew members)
- Thread starter Zephyr
- Start date
Have we all forgotten that American and United crews credentials and uniforms were stolen prior to 9/11?? It broke on this web site first then in the news media 2 weeks later. I for one want every employee taken to task--what about the "foreign" pilot that took a whole plane down last year--or was it 2 years ago. Sorry guys, but as a non rev I expect to be searched and gone over just like everyone else.
fatherabraham
Veteran
- Sep 27, 2002
- 814
- 354
[blockquote]
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On 3/7/2003 10
24 AM gilbertguy wrote:
[blockquote]
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On 3/7/2003 10:01:41 AM fatherabraham wrote:
Folks,
I notice it's always OK for another group to be singled out ( ie. pay / pension / work rules / security etc. ) but not me.
Just curious how many employees must endure TSA on a regular basis? Understand CLT has a bypass. How about the rest?
I note that some ID's seem to have the authority to bypass screening. I assume most of these carry a weapon. So does the TSA agent have some magical ability to detect a fraudulent ID? If so, then why are some employees required to endure screening?
I wonder if all the support personnel that enter other than terminal are subject to same TSA screening techniqes as terminal?
These and many more inequities are what pisses employees off that have to endure TSA on a regular basis.
BTW, for any TSA folks on board....I appreciate your pleasant attitudes. Just do not like the question " How are you today ". It forces me to lie to you, for I am not happy about the whole TSA charade.
There simply is not enough revenue generated in the aviation business today to pay your salaries w/o massive layoffs and paycuts from the airline employees.
TSA is not the whole problem....just a very " in your face " one.
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[/blockquote]
ALL employees must endure security.....and to blame the woes of the airline industry on TSA is hypocritical.....mismanagement, high salaries and unionism is the root case of your problems.....I'll keep you in mind when I open that bag that forces the coroner to ID me from my dental records....[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/11.gif']
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[/blockquote]
Gilbertguy,
Sorry if I offended you.
Read my last sentence again, I in no way put the entire blame on TSA. No doubt they are not the biggest obstacle to airline profitability, however the polls indicate travelers are avoiding the TSA hassle if possible. ( driving / trains / corporate etc. )
Read your last sentence several times. Did not understand what point you were trying to make.
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On 3/7/2003 10
24 AM gilbertguy wrote: [blockquote]
----------------
On 3/7/2003 10:01:41 AM fatherabraham wrote:
Folks,
I notice it's always OK for another group to be singled out ( ie. pay / pension / work rules / security etc. ) but not me.
Just curious how many employees must endure TSA on a regular basis? Understand CLT has a bypass. How about the rest?
I note that some ID's seem to have the authority to bypass screening. I assume most of these carry a weapon. So does the TSA agent have some magical ability to detect a fraudulent ID? If so, then why are some employees required to endure screening?
I wonder if all the support personnel that enter other than terminal are subject to same TSA screening techniqes as terminal?
These and many more inequities are what pisses employees off that have to endure TSA on a regular basis.
BTW, for any TSA folks on board....I appreciate your pleasant attitudes. Just do not like the question " How are you today ". It forces me to lie to you, for I am not happy about the whole TSA charade.
There simply is not enough revenue generated in the aviation business today to pay your salaries w/o massive layoffs and paycuts from the airline employees.
TSA is not the whole problem....just a very " in your face " one.
----------------
[/blockquote]
ALL employees must endure security.....and to blame the woes of the airline industry on TSA is hypocritical.....mismanagement, high salaries and unionism is the root case of your problems.....I'll keep you in mind when I open that bag that forces the coroner to ID me from my dental records....[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/11.gif']
----------------
[/blockquote]
Gilbertguy,
Sorry if I offended you.
Read my last sentence again, I in no way put the entire blame on TSA. No doubt they are not the biggest obstacle to airline profitability, however the polls indicate travelers are avoiding the TSA hassle if possible. ( driving / trains / corporate etc. )
Read your last sentence several times. Did not understand what point you were trying to make.
fatherabraham
Veteran
- Sep 27, 2002
- 814
- 354
[blockquote]
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On 3/7/2003 10:36:45 AM gilbertguy wrote:
[blockquote]
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On 3/7/2003 10:28:06 AM fatherabraham wrote:
[blockquote]
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On 3/7/2003 12:34:02 AM JetTroop wrote:
As a police officer, if anyone, and I could give two turds less if he was a pilot, a janitor or a druggie said that to me, I would take issue with that too. If you're poking fun at the TSA guy for notifing the authorities, I don't blame him. That's overstepping the bounds quite a bit. That is exactly what I don't want when I fly, a pissed off pilot. For the record, I dont want a pissed off bus driver, taxi driver, waitress, bank teller, etc ... and I certainly don't want a pissed off pilot.
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Would you feel humiliated standing in your socks , arms elevated to your side , most of you uniform and personal items searched while the general public watched? A Captain deserves more respect than this!
NO he doesn't!! The general public is subjected to it everyday.....six figure incomes doesn't excuse you!
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[/blockquote]
Gilberguy,
I do not know what I said to upset you. I am not an airline captain. I was simply noting that I respect the position as I do a police officer. They both have a position of authority , yet the Captain's authority ( in the eyes of flying public ) is being diminished by TSA policy. I only suggest that TSA could initiate better or more appropiate screening procedures. Has nothing to do with income levels as you you would like to negate my opinion with class envy.
BTW, I specifically addressed my question to JetTroop. Are you a police officer?
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On 3/7/2003 10:36:45 AM gilbertguy wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/7/2003 10:28:06 AM fatherabraham wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/7/2003 12:34:02 AM JetTroop wrote:
As a police officer, if anyone, and I could give two turds less if he was a pilot, a janitor or a druggie said that to me, I would take issue with that too. If you're poking fun at the TSA guy for notifing the authorities, I don't blame him. That's overstepping the bounds quite a bit. That is exactly what I don't want when I fly, a pissed off pilot. For the record, I dont want a pissed off bus driver, taxi driver, waitress, bank teller, etc ... and I certainly don't want a pissed off pilot.
----------------
Would you feel humiliated standing in your socks , arms elevated to your side , most of you uniform and personal items searched while the general public watched? A Captain deserves more respect than this!
NO he doesn't!! The general public is subjected to it everyday.....six figure incomes doesn't excuse you!
----------------
[/blockquote]
Gilberguy,
I do not know what I said to upset you. I am not an airline captain. I was simply noting that I respect the position as I do a police officer. They both have a position of authority , yet the Captain's authority ( in the eyes of flying public ) is being diminished by TSA policy. I only suggest that TSA could initiate better or more appropiate screening procedures. Has nothing to do with income levels as you you would like to negate my opinion with class envy.
BTW, I specifically addressed my question to JetTroop. Are you a police officer?
[blockquote]
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On 3/7/2003 7
09 AM hopethingswillbeok wrote:
I stand up for the Pilot, to watch these Guys and Gals getting ready to go into a cockpit with an ax, complete control of that aircraft, but before they do, they have to be searched, take off their shoes if they buzz. I find it so stupid. Then you have the little TSA employee who some think they are FBI agents, probably giving the Pilot a hard time, I'm sure he made that statement advising the TSA Agent he could do more with the ax than with his toenail clippers he had in his pocket.
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[/blockquote]
First you re-did the alleged statement that was published in the paper. What was reported was a lot different than how you wordsmithed it. For someone, anyone to threaten another person because he is pissed, is stupid and unprofessional. It's not the TSA agents job to say, "Okay Mr Pilot, I wont search you." Don't kill the messenger. I've dealt with great TSA people and bad TSA people. I've dealt with great pilots and bad pilots. When I'm stuck on a plane for an hour because of a ground hold, I dont run up and threaten the pilot and behead him, he's just the messenger. Just like the TSA agent. Like the new rules or not, it's the rules. Don't take it out on the agent enforcing the rules.
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On 3/7/2003 7
09 AM hopethingswillbeok wrote: I stand up for the Pilot, to watch these Guys and Gals getting ready to go into a cockpit with an ax, complete control of that aircraft, but before they do, they have to be searched, take off their shoes if they buzz. I find it so stupid. Then you have the little TSA employee who some think they are FBI agents, probably giving the Pilot a hard time, I'm sure he made that statement advising the TSA Agent he could do more with the ax than with his toenail clippers he had in his pocket.
----------------
[/blockquote]
First you re-did the alleged statement that was published in the paper. What was reported was a lot different than how you wordsmithed it. For someone, anyone to threaten another person because he is pissed, is stupid and unprofessional. It's not the TSA agents job to say, "Okay Mr Pilot, I wont search you." Don't kill the messenger. I've dealt with great TSA people and bad TSA people. I've dealt with great pilots and bad pilots. When I'm stuck on a plane for an hour because of a ground hold, I dont run up and threaten the pilot and behead him, he's just the messenger. Just like the TSA agent. Like the new rules or not, it's the rules. Don't take it out on the agent enforcing the rules.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/7/2003 10:28:06 AM fatherabraham wrote:
JetTroop,
Just curious, are you a police officer at an airport?
As a police officer you are accustomed to recieving respect by most w/o question. That is how I was raised. For the most part you guys are the heros and I admire your service.
To help you understand how this pilot argued with TSA or possibly lost his/her temper , let me ask you this.
Would you feel humiliated standing in your socks , arms elevated to your side , most of you uniform and personal items searched while the general public watched? A Captain deserves more respect than this!
I am embarrassed for them. The TSA system has a way of bypassing police and federal officers. It apparently holds no respect for crew members and other employees or it would have a like system in place. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/15.gif']
----------------
[/blockquote]
No, I'm a city officer. In fact, I was a full time officer for many years, now I work as a police officer for free. I drive 2 hours each way to work. Rather odd but that's what I do. I enjoy serving and for me, it's not about the money. My primary duties are patrol road work. So I'm out on the streets.
As for searching the captain, I dont feel an airline pilot deserves more respect than anyone else. I've read a few times on this thread how they are to be treated with more respect. Honestly, all kidding aside...but what in the world for? They deserve respect yes, but more than you or I? They deserve just as much as respect a business traveler, a mother of two taking her kids to Disneyworld, a flight attendant, a ramp agent. I don't buy off on the notion that a pilot deserves more respect because he's a pilot. Respect is a two way street. I would take offense to a TSA agent threatening a pilot as well. The jobs aren't the important thing, the threat is. That's my main beef..the threat. Had a traveler said that, I don't know what would have happened but it's very likely they wouldn't have been flying that day.
I think searching a pilot at the checkpoint sets a fine example. If he is getting searched how can others complain? I've been searched, I don't think about it, I don't dwell on it. I just get searched and move on. Life is too short to dwell on a TSA agent who just searched me. It's their job. I don't get upset because the pilot flew me to my destination. I don't get upset because the guy at McDonalds gave me the fries I ordered. Nor do I get upset at the guy for the price of the fries. Nor do I get angry with the pilot for the lousy FF benefits. The agent is doing what they are hired to do, just as the pilot is. But all that aside, threaten someone with an ax, they loose all respect me whatever the profession. We're all humans on this big ball we call Earth and we're not going anywhere anytime soon. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']
----------------
On 3/7/2003 10:28:06 AM fatherabraham wrote:
JetTroop,
Just curious, are you a police officer at an airport?
As a police officer you are accustomed to recieving respect by most w/o question. That is how I was raised. For the most part you guys are the heros and I admire your service.
To help you understand how this pilot argued with TSA or possibly lost his/her temper , let me ask you this.
Would you feel humiliated standing in your socks , arms elevated to your side , most of you uniform and personal items searched while the general public watched? A Captain deserves more respect than this!
I am embarrassed for them. The TSA system has a way of bypassing police and federal officers. It apparently holds no respect for crew members and other employees or it would have a like system in place. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/15.gif']
----------------
[/blockquote]
No, I'm a city officer. In fact, I was a full time officer for many years, now I work as a police officer for free. I drive 2 hours each way to work. Rather odd but that's what I do. I enjoy serving and for me, it's not about the money. My primary duties are patrol road work. So I'm out on the streets.
As for searching the captain, I dont feel an airline pilot deserves more respect than anyone else. I've read a few times on this thread how they are to be treated with more respect. Honestly, all kidding aside...but what in the world for? They deserve respect yes, but more than you or I? They deserve just as much as respect a business traveler, a mother of two taking her kids to Disneyworld, a flight attendant, a ramp agent. I don't buy off on the notion that a pilot deserves more respect because he's a pilot. Respect is a two way street. I would take offense to a TSA agent threatening a pilot as well. The jobs aren't the important thing, the threat is. That's my main beef..the threat. Had a traveler said that, I don't know what would have happened but it's very likely they wouldn't have been flying that day.
I think searching a pilot at the checkpoint sets a fine example. If he is getting searched how can others complain? I've been searched, I don't think about it, I don't dwell on it. I just get searched and move on. Life is too short to dwell on a TSA agent who just searched me. It's their job. I don't get upset because the pilot flew me to my destination. I don't get upset because the guy at McDonalds gave me the fries I ordered. Nor do I get upset at the guy for the price of the fries. Nor do I get angry with the pilot for the lousy FF benefits. The agent is doing what they are hired to do, just as the pilot is. But all that aside, threaten someone with an ax, they loose all respect me whatever the profession. We're all humans on this big ball we call Earth and we're not going anywhere anytime soon. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']
[blockquote]
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On 3/7/2003 9:44:59 AM whatkindoffreshhell wrote:
Agreed. Goes both ways too. We don't know the whole story here. I'm certain hundreds of these incidents occur regularly, but pilots are a special breed and they do deserve an extra measure of respect. They are also held to a higher level of accountability. And yeah they should be paid more than other employees.
The TSA should expedite that 'fast-lane' screening process for airline employees. Unnecessary hassling of aircraft workers doesn't enhance anyone's reputation.
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[/blockquote]
I agree to a point. I don't feel pilots should get extra respect but they should be treated with respect and treat others the same way. Pilots aren't travelers, they're workers in the travel system just like the TSA people. We weren't there and we don't know exactly what happened but on person threatening another person with an ax to take off their head is quite severe.
I most defineately agree with your last statement. The TSA should expedite procedures for airline workers.
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On 3/7/2003 9:44:59 AM whatkindoffreshhell wrote:
Agreed. Goes both ways too. We don't know the whole story here. I'm certain hundreds of these incidents occur regularly, but pilots are a special breed and they do deserve an extra measure of respect. They are also held to a higher level of accountability. And yeah they should be paid more than other employees.
The TSA should expedite that 'fast-lane' screening process for airline employees. Unnecessary hassling of aircraft workers doesn't enhance anyone's reputation.
----------------
[/blockquote]
I agree to a point. I don't feel pilots should get extra respect but they should be treated with respect and treat others the same way. Pilots aren't travelers, they're workers in the travel system just like the TSA people. We weren't there and we don't know exactly what happened but on person threatening another person with an ax to take off their head is quite severe.
I most defineately agree with your last statement. The TSA should expedite procedures for airline workers.
JetTroop said,
As for searching the captain, I don't feel an airline pilot deserves more respect than anyone else.Troop said,
JT,
You're right, they don't deserve more respect but they do deserve more trust. I hope I don't have to spell this out for you because the reason is quite obvious. The real sick and depressing part of this is that by stating a fact, you could wind up in jail. That kind of reminds me of what could happen in a place run by Saddam or Uncle Joe. It's very sad to see this kind of crap happening here in America. This is the entire issue in a nutshell. Pilots are just plain tired of dealing with a system that defies logic. Again, I won't state the obvious because someone out there who lacks the ability to reason just might use their very twisted logic to say that I threatened them.
Pilots are also tired of dealing with people that can't think for themselves and who blindly follow the rules. When the rules are wrong it is our responsibility to speak up and have them changed. When the day comes when we as a people can no longer do this then America as a free nation is doomed. To blindly follow stupidity lowers you to the level of a moron or a slave.
Now as far as the comments made by the pilot about beheading someone, could you possibly believe that anyone would seriously threaten a police officer with that? Also, if the threat was perceived as credible by the police officer, why then was the pilot not immediately arrested. Would you let the headsman go get his ax and start chasing you before you did something about it? I think this was more of a question of power. The TSA automatons just want to put a few arrogant pilots in their proper place. We are not the problem, we are part of the solution. We are on the same side (I hope). God help us all if you can't see that.
As for searching the captain, I don't feel an airline pilot deserves more respect than anyone else.Troop said,
JT,
You're right, they don't deserve more respect but they do deserve more trust. I hope I don't have to spell this out for you because the reason is quite obvious. The real sick and depressing part of this is that by stating a fact, you could wind up in jail. That kind of reminds me of what could happen in a place run by Saddam or Uncle Joe. It's very sad to see this kind of crap happening here in America. This is the entire issue in a nutshell. Pilots are just plain tired of dealing with a system that defies logic. Again, I won't state the obvious because someone out there who lacks the ability to reason just might use their very twisted logic to say that I threatened them.
Pilots are also tired of dealing with people that can't think for themselves and who blindly follow the rules. When the rules are wrong it is our responsibility to speak up and have them changed. When the day comes when we as a people can no longer do this then America as a free nation is doomed. To blindly follow stupidity lowers you to the level of a moron or a slave.
Now as far as the comments made by the pilot about beheading someone, could you possibly believe that anyone would seriously threaten a police officer with that? Also, if the threat was perceived as credible by the police officer, why then was the pilot not immediately arrested. Would you let the headsman go get his ax and start chasing you before you did something about it? I think this was more of a question of power. The TSA automatons just want to put a few arrogant pilots in their proper place. We are not the problem, we are part of the solution. We are on the same side (I hope). God help us all if you can't see that.
What I find most funny is the part where the pilot threatens the agent and everyone blames the agent.
Regardless of who does what, I could care less. School teacher, pilot, fireman, dishwasher...all the same, it doesn't matter. Threatening someone is wrong. If you're pissed fine but threatening to cut someone's head off is wrong. We weren't there, we don't know what happened, we don't know the details of the investigation. But threatening to behead someone is not a good thing. I wouldn't get any warm fuzzies from hearing that.
That's my point. Threating is wrong. If you're pissed about the policy call your congressman, call the TSA, call the agents supervisor. Don't get pissy and say, "Well if I wanted to, I could come back and behead you with an ax." That's stupid and unprofessional and I find it rather revolting, that you (laxmmm), pilot or not, would defend someone saying something that stupid, half-heartily intended just because they're ticked about a policy they feel their above. You don't go shouting off, "Fire!!" in a crowded building or "I have a bomb" at the airport and you shouldn't threaten to cut someone's head off.
Regardless of who does what, I could care less. School teacher, pilot, fireman, dishwasher...all the same, it doesn't matter. Threatening someone is wrong. If you're pissed fine but threatening to cut someone's head off is wrong. We weren't there, we don't know what happened, we don't know the details of the investigation. But threatening to behead someone is not a good thing. I wouldn't get any warm fuzzies from hearing that.
That's my point. Threating is wrong. If you're pissed about the policy call your congressman, call the TSA, call the agents supervisor. Don't get pissy and say, "Well if I wanted to, I could come back and behead you with an ax." That's stupid and unprofessional and I find it rather revolting, that you (laxmmm), pilot or not, would defend someone saying something that stupid, half-heartily intended just because they're ticked about a policy they feel their above. You don't go shouting off, "Fire!!" in a crowded building or "I have a bomb" at the airport and you shouldn't threaten to cut someone's head off.
fatherabraham
Veteran
- Sep 27, 2002
- 814
- 354
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/7/2003 2
13 PM JetTroop wrote:
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/7/2003 10:28:06 AM fatherabraham wrote:
JetTroop,
Just curious, are you a police officer at an airport?
As a police officer you are accustomed to recieving respect by most w/o question. That is how I was raised. For the most part you guys are the heros and I admire your service.
To help you understand how this pilot argued with TSA or possibly lost his/her temper , let me ask you this.
Would you feel humiliated standing in your socks , arms elevated to your side , most of you uniform and personal items searched while the general public watched? A Captain deserves more respect than this!
I am embarrassed for them. The TSA system has a way of bypassing police and federal officers. It apparently holds no respect for crew members and other employees or it would have a like system in place. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/15.gif']
----------------
[/blockquote]
No, I'm a city officer. In fact, I was a full time officer for many years, now I work as a police officer for free. I drive 2 hours each way to work. Rather odd but that's what I do. I enjoy serving and for me, it's not about the money. My primary duties are patrol road work. So I'm out on the streets.
As for searching the captain, I dont feel an airline pilot deserves more respect than anyone else. I've read a few times on this thread how they are to be treated with more respect. Honestly, all kidding aside...but what in the world for? They deserve respect yes, but more than you or I? They deserve just as much as respect a business traveler, a mother of two taking her kids to Disneyworld, a flight attendant, a ramp agent. I don't buy off on the notion that a pilot deserves more respect because he's a pilot. Respect is a two way street. I would take offense to a TSA agent threatening a pilot as well. The jobs aren't the important thing, the threat is. That's my main beef..the threat. Had a traveler said that, I don't know what would have happened but it's very likely they wouldn't have been flying that day.
I think searching a pilot at the checkpoint sets a fine example. If he is getting searched how can others complain? I've been searched, I don't think about it, I don't dwell on it. I just get searched and move on. Life is too short to dwell on a TSA agent who just searched me. It's their job. I don't get upset because the pilot flew me to my destination. I don't get upset because the guy at McDonalds gave me the fries I ordered. Nor do I get upset at the guy for the price of the fries. Nor do I get angry with the pilot for the lousy FF benefits. The agent is doing what they are hired to do, just as the pilot is. But all that aside, threaten someone with an ax, they loose all respect me whatever the profession. We're all humans on this big ball we call Earth and we're not going anywhere anytime soon. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']
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[/blockquote]
JetTroop,
I do not seem to be getting my point accross. Let me try to paint a different scenerio...hope it's not too weak.
Let's say you respond to a disturbance in the Mall parking lot. You arrive in full uniform. As you approach the disturbance the Mall security says he/she will first need to confirm your credentials.
" Just step over to my golf cart while I wand you , empty your pockets and search you in case you may be a fraud. I think it would humiliate you and leave you with a lousy attitude. I also think the onlookers will loose respect for you over time.
Now after all the years of performing your duty in an honorable fashion , the " system " has now determined that your authority can now be questioned by seemingly everyone in a potentially disrespectful fashion. That ID and uniform you wear ( with all background checks ) allows you no more authority than what the Mall guard determines he/she will extend to you. Oh btw, the mall guard has the authority to releive you of your job if he/she determines that you said something in a threatening manner. You will be guilty untill you prove yourself innocent ( with all the associated cost ).
Again, most likely a rediculous analogy. Groping since I know Zero about law enforcement. What I am trying to get accross is the poor way TSA applies the " security process" to a uniformed and properly ID employee.
All employees know the inequities of the screening process who travel the system. I would never suggest we point them out to the general public in an open forum. Those who claim ALL are screened are uninformed.
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On 3/7/2003 2
13 PM JetTroop wrote: [blockquote]
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On 3/7/2003 10:28:06 AM fatherabraham wrote:
JetTroop,
Just curious, are you a police officer at an airport?
As a police officer you are accustomed to recieving respect by most w/o question. That is how I was raised. For the most part you guys are the heros and I admire your service.
To help you understand how this pilot argued with TSA or possibly lost his/her temper , let me ask you this.
Would you feel humiliated standing in your socks , arms elevated to your side , most of you uniform and personal items searched while the general public watched? A Captain deserves more respect than this!
I am embarrassed for them. The TSA system has a way of bypassing police and federal officers. It apparently holds no respect for crew members and other employees or it would have a like system in place. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/15.gif']
----------------
[/blockquote]
No, I'm a city officer. In fact, I was a full time officer for many years, now I work as a police officer for free. I drive 2 hours each way to work. Rather odd but that's what I do. I enjoy serving and for me, it's not about the money. My primary duties are patrol road work. So I'm out on the streets.
As for searching the captain, I dont feel an airline pilot deserves more respect than anyone else. I've read a few times on this thread how they are to be treated with more respect. Honestly, all kidding aside...but what in the world for? They deserve respect yes, but more than you or I? They deserve just as much as respect a business traveler, a mother of two taking her kids to Disneyworld, a flight attendant, a ramp agent. I don't buy off on the notion that a pilot deserves more respect because he's a pilot. Respect is a two way street. I would take offense to a TSA agent threatening a pilot as well. The jobs aren't the important thing, the threat is. That's my main beef..the threat. Had a traveler said that, I don't know what would have happened but it's very likely they wouldn't have been flying that day.
I think searching a pilot at the checkpoint sets a fine example. If he is getting searched how can others complain? I've been searched, I don't think about it, I don't dwell on it. I just get searched and move on. Life is too short to dwell on a TSA agent who just searched me. It's their job. I don't get upset because the pilot flew me to my destination. I don't get upset because the guy at McDonalds gave me the fries I ordered. Nor do I get upset at the guy for the price of the fries. Nor do I get angry with the pilot for the lousy FF benefits. The agent is doing what they are hired to do, just as the pilot is. But all that aside, threaten someone with an ax, they loose all respect me whatever the profession. We're all humans on this big ball we call Earth and we're not going anywhere anytime soon. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']
----------------
[/blockquote]
JetTroop,
I do not seem to be getting my point accross. Let me try to paint a different scenerio...hope it's not too weak.
Let's say you respond to a disturbance in the Mall parking lot. You arrive in full uniform. As you approach the disturbance the Mall security says he/she will first need to confirm your credentials.
" Just step over to my golf cart while I wand you , empty your pockets and search you in case you may be a fraud. I think it would humiliate you and leave you with a lousy attitude. I also think the onlookers will loose respect for you over time.
Now after all the years of performing your duty in an honorable fashion , the " system " has now determined that your authority can now be questioned by seemingly everyone in a potentially disrespectful fashion. That ID and uniform you wear ( with all background checks ) allows you no more authority than what the Mall guard determines he/she will extend to you. Oh btw, the mall guard has the authority to releive you of your job if he/she determines that you said something in a threatening manner. You will be guilty untill you prove yourself innocent ( with all the associated cost ).
Again, most likely a rediculous analogy. Groping since I know Zero about law enforcement. What I am trying to get accross is the poor way TSA applies the " security process" to a uniformed and properly ID employee.
All employees know the inequities of the screening process who travel the system. I would never suggest we point them out to the general public in an open forum. Those who claim ALL are screened are uninformed.
[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/7/2003 4:03:26 PM fatherabraham wrote:
JetTroop,
I do not seem to be getting my point accross. Let me try to paint a different scenerio...hope it's not too weak.
Let's say you respond to a disturbance in the Mall parking lot. You arrive in full uniform. As you approach the disturbance the Mall security says he/she will first need to confirm your credentials.
" Just step over to my golf cart while I wand you , empty your pockets and search you in case you may be a fraud. I think it would humiliate you and leave you with a lousy attitude. I also think the onlookers will loose respect for you over time.
Now after all the years of performing your duty in an honorable fashion , the " system " has now determined that your authority can now be questioned by seemingly everyone in a potentially disrespectful fashion. That ID and uniform you wear ( with all background checks ) allows you no more authority than what the Mall guard determines he/she will extend to you. Oh btw, the mall guard has the authority to releive you of your job if he/she determines that you said something in a threatening manner. You will be guilty untill you prove yourself innocent ( with all the associated cost ).
Again, most likely a rediculous analogy. Groping since I know Zero about law enforcement. What I am trying to get accross is the poor way TSA applies the " security process" to a uniformed and properly ID employee.
All employees know the inequities of the screening process who travel the system. I would never suggest we point them out to the general public in an open forum. Those who claim ALL are screened are uninformed.
----------------
[/blockquote]
First, I want to say thank you. I enjoy a good discussion and the manner in which you've posted and responded...
Now, on to your post
I have two very close friends. One who is an Air Marshal and one who is a TSA Security Screening Supervisor. Never have I heard the TSA Screening Supervisor say he has the power to relieve someone or determine them not able to fly. Now my background is not with the TSA, however, that doesn't mean I haven't read about every possible piece of information out there or talk to both of them about policies and procedures. A TSA Agents job isn't to look for bad pilots, it's to look for weapons. For now, that goes for continuous searching of everyone through the checkpoint. One person done, the next that was in line at the moment is up for searching. It's not random, it's called continuous..the luck of the draw. The moment we say that all terrorists are male, over 25, under 35 and Arabic, we have a problem...a big problem. Everyone can be a possible terrorist...including me. It can happen. You can't just say, I'll only search some of the people but only ones that meet this profile because the terrorists will learn from that and find others that are sympathetic to their causes and recruit them. It would be shortsighted to think that only certain people could cause harm to us and attempt overtake an airplane. Including a pilot. Stranger things have happened. To ensure better security screening, you search everyone...or rather, you allow everyone to be searched. The more people you say, "They shouldn't be searched" or "They shouldn't be bothered" too, the larger of a security hole you have.
One thing I've learned from my experience as a police officer is that there are usually three sides to every story. His, Hers and what really happened. What I don't think a lot of people are looking at, is the other side of the fence. "It looks bad searching a pilot" But to others it looks like: "Wow, even they get searched...I feel safer." or "No one is above getting searched, I like that". So when you say it looks bad for the pilot because he looses authority, not everyone feels that way or thinks that way. By not screening them, you create an elitist attitude. One where people think, oh...he's better than me. There are 100 some people on a plane, most of whom would be happy to know that the co-pilot isn't armed and can't shoot the pilot and vice-versa. Now when weapons are introduced, that's another story altogether. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']
So my final point is, while it look bad to you to see a pilot getting searched, to many others, they feel better. To them it means that no one is above getting searched and less chances that a potential terrorist could slip through. Security isn't so much the actual physical security of things as it is the appearance of security. Signs, fences, notices of attack dogs, do just as much good, if not more so, than having a guard at a gate. (People see security and they feel better and the crooks are far more nervous.) One thing I've always noticed is that most criminals are self-conscience. I look at them...they panic, sweat and run.
----------------
On 3/7/2003 4:03:26 PM fatherabraham wrote:
JetTroop,
I do not seem to be getting my point accross. Let me try to paint a different scenerio...hope it's not too weak.
Let's say you respond to a disturbance in the Mall parking lot. You arrive in full uniform. As you approach the disturbance the Mall security says he/she will first need to confirm your credentials.
" Just step over to my golf cart while I wand you , empty your pockets and search you in case you may be a fraud. I think it would humiliate you and leave you with a lousy attitude. I also think the onlookers will loose respect for you over time.
Now after all the years of performing your duty in an honorable fashion , the " system " has now determined that your authority can now be questioned by seemingly everyone in a potentially disrespectful fashion. That ID and uniform you wear ( with all background checks ) allows you no more authority than what the Mall guard determines he/she will extend to you. Oh btw, the mall guard has the authority to releive you of your job if he/she determines that you said something in a threatening manner. You will be guilty untill you prove yourself innocent ( with all the associated cost ).
Again, most likely a rediculous analogy. Groping since I know Zero about law enforcement. What I am trying to get accross is the poor way TSA applies the " security process" to a uniformed and properly ID employee.
All employees know the inequities of the screening process who travel the system. I would never suggest we point them out to the general public in an open forum. Those who claim ALL are screened are uninformed.
----------------
[/blockquote]
First, I want to say thank you. I enjoy a good discussion and the manner in which you've posted and responded...
Now, on to your post
I have two very close friends. One who is an Air Marshal and one who is a TSA Security Screening Supervisor. Never have I heard the TSA Screening Supervisor say he has the power to relieve someone or determine them not able to fly. Now my background is not with the TSA, however, that doesn't mean I haven't read about every possible piece of information out there or talk to both of them about policies and procedures. A TSA Agents job isn't to look for bad pilots, it's to look for weapons. For now, that goes for continuous searching of everyone through the checkpoint. One person done, the next that was in line at the moment is up for searching. It's not random, it's called continuous..the luck of the draw. The moment we say that all terrorists are male, over 25, under 35 and Arabic, we have a problem...a big problem. Everyone can be a possible terrorist...including me. It can happen. You can't just say, I'll only search some of the people but only ones that meet this profile because the terrorists will learn from that and find others that are sympathetic to their causes and recruit them. It would be shortsighted to think that only certain people could cause harm to us and attempt overtake an airplane. Including a pilot. Stranger things have happened. To ensure better security screening, you search everyone...or rather, you allow everyone to be searched. The more people you say, "They shouldn't be searched" or "They shouldn't be bothered" too, the larger of a security hole you have.
One thing I've learned from my experience as a police officer is that there are usually three sides to every story. His, Hers and what really happened. What I don't think a lot of people are looking at, is the other side of the fence. "It looks bad searching a pilot" But to others it looks like: "Wow, even they get searched...I feel safer." or "No one is above getting searched, I like that". So when you say it looks bad for the pilot because he looses authority, not everyone feels that way or thinks that way. By not screening them, you create an elitist attitude. One where people think, oh...he's better than me. There are 100 some people on a plane, most of whom would be happy to know that the co-pilot isn't armed and can't shoot the pilot and vice-versa. Now when weapons are introduced, that's another story altogether. [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/2.gif']
So my final point is, while it look bad to you to see a pilot getting searched, to many others, they feel better. To them it means that no one is above getting searched and less chances that a potential terrorist could slip through. Security isn't so much the actual physical security of things as it is the appearance of security. Signs, fences, notices of attack dogs, do just as much good, if not more so, than having a guard at a gate. (People see security and they feel better and the crooks are far more nervous.) One thing I've always noticed is that most criminals are self-conscience. I look at them...they panic, sweat and run.
I just can't get past the obvious. Why search a guy or gal that may pass the screening with flying colors, and then fly the aircraft into any facility he/she chooses? The Egyptair guy didn't need any weapons.
Did you know that thirty two Fed Ex uniforms were purchased off of ebay? Something not right with that. But watch a Pilot get off of a flight to go purchase something and then watch them searched is stupid. You have not heard anything about TSA agents, that smell someones breath, and decide they are the police. I am a gate agent, come up very close to Pilots to be able to smell their breath, never have I smelled alcohol on their breath, but TSA seems to be able too. Also the guy in California on the PSA flight, was an old US employee from BDL, Moved out to California during the merge, he was a pimp and running drugs out of the baggage service off where he worked, police moved in and he was fired for being arrested, which he blamed the Station Manager for reporting him, he felt this was ok to do.....So the Station Manager commuted every weekend and he followed him on his flight home.....very sad....
Dear JT,
I can tell by some of your comments that you know little or nothing about aviation. First of all you use the term "bad pilot". Could you please expand on that? Does it mean that they are incompetent when it comes to flying or does it have something to do with not blindly falling in line and doing what you are told without question? Second, you mention that most passengers are glad to know that the other pilot is not armed so now there is no fear that one pilot will shoot the other. That statement really makes me laugh. How naive can you be? Do you not realize that if one pilot went crazy that there isn't much of anything the other could do to stop a disaster? That's where the trust from my previous post comes in. People have no other choice but to trust us. That's just a fact of life in aviation.
Lastly, if it makes you feel any better, we have all been psychologically screened to make sure we are mentally stable. Most of us have been in the military and have been entrusted with everything from a .38 to a nuclear weapon. We as a group have one primary purpose, the safety of the aircraft and all of its passengers. Part of a good pilots makeup is his/her unwillingness to blindly follow instructions. Our psychological makeup and training forces us to continually evaluate our environment and question things that don't make sense. So don't hold this against us, we can't help ourselves. And be glad we are like this, if we were not there would be many more accidents.
I can tell by some of your comments that you know little or nothing about aviation. First of all you use the term "bad pilot". Could you please expand on that? Does it mean that they are incompetent when it comes to flying or does it have something to do with not blindly falling in line and doing what you are told without question? Second, you mention that most passengers are glad to know that the other pilot is not armed so now there is no fear that one pilot will shoot the other. That statement really makes me laugh. How naive can you be? Do you not realize that if one pilot went crazy that there isn't much of anything the other could do to stop a disaster? That's where the trust from my previous post comes in. People have no other choice but to trust us. That's just a fact of life in aviation.
Lastly, if it makes you feel any better, we have all been psychologically screened to make sure we are mentally stable. Most of us have been in the military and have been entrusted with everything from a .38 to a nuclear weapon. We as a group have one primary purpose, the safety of the aircraft and all of its passengers. Part of a good pilots makeup is his/her unwillingness to blindly follow instructions. Our psychological makeup and training forces us to continually evaluate our environment and question things that don't make sense. So don't hold this against us, we can't help ourselves. And be glad we are like this, if we were not there would be many more accidents.
[blockquote]
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On 3/7/2003 213 PM JetTroop wrote:
It's their job. I don't get upset because the pilot flew me to my destination. I don't get upset because the guy at McDonalds gave me the fries I ordered. [/blockquote]
No, but any intelligent person can't help but get peeved when he realizes that the goofball in the spiffy new "Thousands Standing Around" uniform SHOULD be working at McDonalds...although he/she would get fired from that lofty position in the fast food industry within a week for sheer incompetence...
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On 3/7/2003 2
13 PM JetTroop wrote: It's their job. I don't get upset because the pilot flew me to my destination. I don't get upset because the guy at McDonalds gave me the fries I ordered. [/blockquote]
No, but any intelligent person can't help but get peeved when he realizes that the goofball in the spiffy new "Thousands Standing Around" uniform SHOULD be working at McDonalds...although he/she would get fired from that lofty position in the fast food industry within a week for sheer incompetence...
