Big Brother Goes Overboard

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WingNaPrayer

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[h2]U.S. plan: Threat level for every flier[/h2]
ACLU objects, calls background checks unconstitutional
Friday, February 28, 2003 Posted: 1:55 PM EST (1855 GMT)
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Civil liberties groups are objecting to a government plan for a new system that would check background information and assign a threat level to everyone who buys a ticket for a commercial flight.
Activists see the potential for unconstitutional invasions of privacy and for database mix-ups that could lead to innocent people being branded security risks.
This system threatens to create a permanent blacklisted underclass of Americans who cannot travel freely, said Katie Corrigan, a lawyer for the American Civil Liberties Union.
There also is concern that the government is developing the system without revealing how information will be gathered and how long it will be kept.
The system, ordered by Congress after the September 11 attacks, will gather much more information on passengers than has been done previously. Delta Air Lines will try it out at three undisclosed airports beginning next month, and a comprehensive system could be in place by the end of the year.
Transportation officials say a contractor will be picked soon to build the nationwide computer system, which will check such things as credit reports and bank account activity and compare passenger names with those on government watch lists.
Advocates say the system will weed out dangerous people while ensuring law-abiding citizens aren't given unnecessary scrutiny.
Transportation officials say CAPPS II -- Computer Assisted Passenger Prescreening System -- will use databases that already operate in line with privacy laws and won't profile based on race, religion or ethnicity.
What it does is have very fast access to existing databases so we can quickly validate the person's identity, Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta said.
Airlines already do rudimentary checks
An oversight panel, which will include a member of the public, is being formed. The Transportation Security Administration will set up procedures to resolve complaints by people who say they don't belong on the watch lists.
Transportation Department spokesman Chet Lunner said a Federal Register notice saying the background information will be stored for 50 years is inaccurate. He said such information will be held only for people deemed security risks.
Jay Stanley, an ACLU spokesman, was skeptical.
When it says in print, 50 years, we'd like to see something else in print to counter that, he said.
Airlines already do rudimentary checks of passenger information, such as method of payment, address and date the ticket was reserved. The system was developed by Northwest Airlines in the early 1990s to spot possible hijackers.
Unusual behavior, such as purchasing a one-way ticket with cash, is supposed to prompt increased scrutiny at the airport.
Capt. Steve Luckey, an airline pilot who helped develop the system, said CAPPS II will help discern a passenger's possible intentions before he gets on a plane.
Unlike the current system, in which data stays with the airlines' reservation systems, the new setup will be managed by TSA. Only government officials with proper security clearance will be able to use it.
Would you be a green, yellow or red risk?
CAPPS II will collect data and rate each passenger's risk potential according to a three-color system: green, yellow, red. When travelers check in, their names will be punched into the system and their boarding passes encrypted with the ranking. TSA screeners will check the passes at checkpoints.
The vast majority of passengers will be rated green and won't be subjected to anything more than normal checks, while yellow will get extra screening and red won't fly.
Paul Hudson, executive director of the Aviation Consumer Action Project, which advocates airline safety and security, is skeptical the system will work.
The whole track record of profiling is a very poor to mixed one, Hudson said, noting incorrect profiles of the Unabomber and the Washington-area snipers.
Nine to 11 of the 19 hijackers on September 11 were flagged by the original CAPPS, but weren't searched because the system gave a pass to passengers who didn't check their bags, Hudson said. People without checked bags are now included.
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....and the government takes one more giant step towards driving customers away from the nation's airports.
 

Hopeful

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One of the major factors contributing to the failure of the CIA and FBI to prevent 9/11 and even the 1993 WTC bombing was the laws that protected "certain" players.

President Jimmy Carter tied the hands of the FBI and CIA and said it was immoral to "wiretap" mosques because they were places of worship!

DUH!

The terrorists knew this and that is where alot of the hatred against this country was grown and practiced. It was also in these mosques where planning was made for anti-american activities free from U.S. intelligence agencies."
 

Hopeful

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It's about a terrorist travelling freely throughout the country flying here and there. He may not only be wanting to use the aircraft as a weapon, but just use the aircraft to get somewhere where he can do harm. You ever think of that? I would hope that if a "check" that was done on a passenger boarding an aircraft turned up that he or she was wanted for unpaid traffic tickets, that would not hold up in a court of law.

Wingnaprayer:

Would you want to know if a convicted child molester moved next door to you or would you rather respect his rights and learn the hard way?
 

Hopeful

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Critics complained "How could 9/11 have happpened?" "Where was the FBI and CIA?" "How could these people board an aircraft and use it as a missile?"

Now we have a system that will help track known terrorists and the ACLU is worried about civil rights.

How naive some people are! Like the government can't already pull up a file on everyone with a social security number. So the passengers have more rights than airline workers? We have been subject to background checks and even more thorough since 9/11. But' it's ok to let a terrorist board an aircraft and fly as a passenger, but it's criminal if one is employeed by an airline and working on board one.
 
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WingNaPrayer

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[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/1/2003 7:35:00 AM Hopeful wrote:

One of the major factors contributing to the failure of the CIA and FBI to prevent 9/11 and even the 1993 WTC bombing was the laws that protected "certain" players.

President Jimmy Carter tied the hands of the FBI and CIA and said it was immoral to "wiretap" mosques because they were places of worship!

DUH!

The terrorists knew this and that is where alot of the hatred against this country was grown and practiced. It was also in these mosques where planning was made for anti-american activities free from U.S. intelligence agencies."


----------------
[/blockquote]

OH my gawd! You're one of THEM people!!

Now you scare me, you really do.
 
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WingNaPrayer

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Not at all. If airline employees and the TSA do their jobs right, then no one is going to get on board any aircraft with anything in their possession that is going to be a threat. Snooping into someone's credit report, or looking to see if they've ever bounced a check in their lifetime or might happen to have outstanding traffic tickets they haven't paid isn't going to do a thing for on board safety.

This is big brother overstepping it's bounds but...such is the desire of the Bush administration.

It's all about money, period.
 

trvlr64

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Thank god for you WindNaPray. The other posters have lost their minds. If this does get implemented the airlines are going to see a drastic drop in travel. Bush and Mineta and Ridge are NUTS!!

Guess I might already be labled "YELLOW" since I am sick of being searched by the TSA and nonTSA. This government is starting to take away our rights slowly. I can't wait for the next elections to get Bush out of office. I can only hope that Florida is NOT allowed to participate!
 
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WingNaPrayer

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[blockquote]
----------------
On 3/1/2003 7:27:05 AM Hopeful wrote:

It's about a terrorist travelling freely throughout the country flying here and there. He may not only be wanting to use the aircraft as a weapon, but just use the aircraft to get somewhere where he can do harm. You ever think of that? I would hope that if a "check" that was done on a passenger boarding an aircraft turned up that he or she was wanted for unpaid traffic tickets, that would not hold up in a court of law.

Wingnaprayer:

Would you want to know if a convicted child molester moved next door to you or would you rather respect his rights and learn the hard way?
----------------
[/blockquote]

Good gawd now you're being paranoid. Anyone...repeat...anyone who travels can use aircraft as you suggest above to get where they are going and do harm as you put it, once they get there. You don't have to be a "terrorist" to snap...i.e. the DC snipers. The fact is, the government is going to use this little tactic to catalog people "just in case" and that is a violation of one of the freedoms people used to have in this country. Taking a plane trip should not give anyone, including the government, the right to go snooping through your bank accounts. It's tantamount to the sting operations police do when they apparently get bored and entice someone to do a crime, then call it a sting.

If this plan goes into effect, it WILL cost airlines customers because many people just won't line up to have their constitutional rights stripped from them without recourse, no plane ride is worth surrendering your freedoms to. As far as our freedoms not applying to foreign nationals traveling on our transportation systems...as soon as the federal government does away with "diplomatic immunity" then I'll give it some thought.

As to your child molester comment, I don't care what the crime is, as long as an individual has "paid their debt to society" or served their sentence, then no, I don't care who lives where, it's not my right, or yours, to dictate that. Now, if what you are suggesting is that once convicted, you're convicted for life, then the sentencing laws of this country's judicial system are seriously flawed and need to be overhauled from the bottom up. Do you realize that due to diplomatic immunity, any member of the UN,their families, staff, and anyone else that travels here with them could molest your child and, thanks to diplomatic immunity, there wouldn't be a thing you could do about it?

You're preaching a double standard.
 

Hopeful

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I'M PARANOID?

I guess 9/11 didn't happen! Sorry, Wing I was wrong! A convicted child molester can board a plane and go from point A to Point B to molest elsewhere. That's a far cry from causing mass death and destruction.

You exemplify the Ultra Liberal views that have brought this nation to be attacked becuase in your eyes
"there's good in everybody." I'm sure you wouldn't care about having a convicted child molester as your neighbor if you had small children. Why don't you invite him over for coffee?


Hey WING:

Would you be willing to say Osama Bin Ladin is innocent until proven guilty?
 
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WingNaPrayer

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This isn't supposed to be a pissing match. Needless to say, you're obviously one of those ultra conservatives who needs the government to intervene and run their lives for them, and listens to whackos like Bush and now thinks there is a taliban around every corner to the point you're afraid of your own shadow.

If you're advocating preventing a convicted child molester from boarding aircraft, then you really are missing the mark.

In these times when airlines are struggling for their very financial existence (and the jobs that depend on them doing so) the last thing needed is MORE government regulation and intervention to scare off revenue. The government has used 9/11 to death when it comes to stripping away constitutional rights, and now wants to go start a war with Saddam becase he is a threat to those very rights that we no longer have because homeland security TOOK THEM AWAY!

How much closer to a dictatorship does Bush have to get before those head injuries you sustained when you fell off that turnip truck are healed?

This latest plan to protect national security has less and less to do with "security" rather more and more to do with your government eventually controlling every last aspect of your life.

Need to take a piss? Here, go fill out this form in triplicate and bring it back a week from Tuesday....can you hold it 'till then?

No one is terrorizing this country anymore except for it's own government, which does so to further it's own political agenda.

Either wake up or hit the snooze alarm!
 

Hopeful

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It's a good thing you guys weren't around when Hitler was doing his thing. All of Europe would be speaking German today!

I tell you what, Wing, let's get rid of the FBI and CIA and NSA and do it your way. Let the ACLU run the country. Let's let everybody do anything they want to do however illegal it may be. Let's leave suspected terrorists alone in this country and leave them be. As long as they don't board an aircraft with a weapon, it's ok with you. After all, Osama, has his ALLAH given right to cause death in this country. As long as there are anti-government meeley mouthed card carrying ultra liberals around, you encourage anti-American extremism and give all the fundamentalist are reason for killing!
 

trvlr64

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Reread the following line closer..... Nine to 11 of the 19 hijackers on September 11 were flagged by the original CAPPS, but weren't searched because the system gave a pass to passengers who didn't check their bags, Hudson said. People without checked bags are now included.
.....................

Looks like the government didn't do it's job correctly, again! But lets go back to the FBI agent in Minnesota that forewarned her superiors....she wasn't LISTENED to then and looked what happened.

As usual since 9/11, this country is in a reactionary state instead of a proactive state. You may call CAPPSII proactive but it's nothing more than invasion of YOUR constitutional rights. Our current government is lacking the credibility to get this country out of it's current mess. Taking a lesson from the past, we should have circled the wagons, so to speak. Instead we went full force in to finding and fighting terrorism and we are no safer now than we were pre9/11. Our government didn't take the time to make sure this country was safe for it's residents and now they want to get into your personal business even more.

The only way to really create trust in the airlines again is to institute a TRUSTED TRAVELER card. Only then would I give up my rights to have the FBI review my life. OH GUESS what?! I already have. I got to work the 2002 Olympics and had to be screened to work there at the Olympic Village. Now that was of my OWN FREE choosing to have that background check. I would be the perfect guinea pig for a TRUSTED TRAVELER card.

Oh and before you suggest that I get therapy I'll give you a little history about myself. I was supposed to be on a plane 9/11 to NYC. I had just finished packing my bag and turned around to finish watching GMA when they showed what was going on. Yes it was shocking and that entire week I was mesmerized by the aftermath. By 9/14 I didn't want to ever get on a plane again. But come the following week I was back on a plane to NYC again to go my job. Another interesting tidbit. I was involved in the x-raying of the bodies from the USAir crash in PIT 8 years ago. I won't go into the gross details of my job, but needless to say I was on a plane 1 week later to SAN.

There is a need for some people to have therapy for hard times. But others like me know that it is part of life and we move on.

It's time to move on. Don't live your life in fear of what may happen. If you do, then the terrorists won. And I won't let any raghead think they have beaten me. EVER!
 

Hopeful

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I tell you what, Wing, you can have the last word. I broke a rule of my own never to debate politics and religion with strangers. So I will stick to the topics of this board.
 

Hopeful

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You probably don't live in or around NYC, and probably don't care either. The prime target where anyone can use anything to do harm is of no concern to you. Were you watching reruns of HeeHaw on 9/11? Speaking of therapy, those affected by 9/11 who lost loved ones at the WTC are still seeking therapy today!
 

DFWCC

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Did anyone suggest that this be voluntary.
A sore spot with me is Employees having to go through the security screeners. You know them TSA {Thousand Standing Around}. It is all fodder for the traveling public. Anyone knows how to get around their security. We have already been ck'd and reck'd. Now here's a good one this CC is to retire at the end of MAR. AA HR called him at home and said they had aproblem with his application references. He thought it was a joke. After 37yrs now they worry about his references. They assured him no joke and threatened to pull his ID. Now what kind of BS is that?
 
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