Check Your Emotions

[Ames]

It is obvious that this MOU between the company and the union has created quite a stir. Subsequent to the company and APA reaching an agreement usapa loyalists complained that we were left out. The company moves to include usapa and reaches a MOU with them. It is determined the pilots will get to vote on said agreement yet union leaders recommend a no vote to the company's efforts to include them. This non confidence recommendation may result in the company pulling out of the agreement and its efforts to include US Airways pilots.

Like it or not, pro or con, the pilots deserve a say and they may be deprived of that say by the very people who complained of non inclusion in the first place. Every effort to grant the pilots their say should be made and the rank and file vote should be the final word.

If we do get to vote on the MOU everyone exercising that vote should put their emotions on check. This MOU and the impending merger with American has nothing to do about what anyone thinks they are owed. Nothing to do with the sacrifices anyone thinks they made in order to get where we are today.

It has everything to do with where we intend to be and what we hope to attain.

 

[luvthe9]

This belongs on the Pilot Labor Thread, we don't need another thread !!!! shut'er down.

 

[Ames]

This belongs on the Pilot Labor Thread, we don't need another thread !!!! shut'er down.

Why? Are you afraid a little common sense won't get buried under all the whining and hysteria?

 

[traderjake]

luvthe9 is right.

You don't get your own thread every time you want to make a point.

For me it come down to risk vs reward.

How much do we risk losing if we vote down the MOU and Doug doesn't make a counter offer vs how much can we gain if he does?

I don't think Doug is going to offer much more because I don't think he needs us, our CoC, or scope for the merger to procede.

 

[Ames]

luvthe9 is right.

You don't get your own thread every time you want to make a point.

For me it come down to risk vs reward.

How much do we risk losing if we vote down the MOU and Doug doesn't make a counter offer vs how much can we gain if he does?

I don't think Doug is going to offer much more because I don't think he needs us, our CoC, or scope for the merger to procede.

You're right. Doug doesn't need us. He made that clear from the outset. He won't offer much more because we have nothing he needs. The only thing could benefit from is employee support and throwing us this bone might actually achieve that to a point.

The pilot group deserves to decide for itself whether to take that bone and shouldn't be held hostage by a handful of fools.

At this juncture this isn't a minor point I am making and shouldn't be buried in the detrius that is "the pilot labor thread"

 

[ChockJockey]

The problem you're going to have in any negotiations with anybody is the suicide vest pilots who have maintained for years that they will never stop fighting and will never give up, never give in no matter what. These are those who, were it not for perpetual professional discord, would be forced to define and derive meaning from some other aspect of their lives; their aspirations of martyrdom and delusions that their inflexibility will somehow increase their pilot cred will further guarantee that they continue to persist in resisting in one manner or another.

It doesn't surprise me that there are those who are reluctant to end that struggle which for years so consumed and defined them. People like feeling that they're fighting for something meaningful, that their words and actions and sentiments are materially capable of changing their lot. This feeling becomes so appealing that after a while it matters not what they are fighting for, only that they keep fighting, keep resisting, "until the end".

Well at long last the end seems to be coming, in one way or another, to the Epic Pilot Struggle™. It is my sincere hope that the greater part of our pilots will be able to secure a quality agreement with all the same benefits and compensations that our management is promising to APA, as well as any additional protections that might seem warranted. If, on the other hand, some small cadre of die-hards somehow manage to scuttle this and leave the US pilots group vulnerable to evisceration and marginalization at the hands of management or the AA pilots, then, well, that too might be a fitting end and important lesson to those who are unwilling to compromise.

How sad it would be to have spent all those thousands of hours and millions of dollars on the seniority circus only to be plowed under by the industry's unceasing march towards the future...

 

[EastCheats]

I don't know if you caught the Little League World Series this weekend. Japan won the series beating the US team. The kids from Japan were a class act. When a US player hit a home run, the Japanese pitcher met the runner at home to high-five him. After the game the Japanese team paraded around the field with the Stars and Stripes and their flag. Then they neatly folded the US flag out of respect and bowed to the crowd. The US team stayed and congratulated the Japanese team with high-fives.

Adults can learn a lot from these kids about sportsmanship and playing by the rules. Not throwing throwing the bat down,grabbing the ball and storming off the field after the game.

 

[firedougparker]

You have got to be kidding me. How does an MOU or new contract not have EVERYTHING to do with what we are owed? And no, it's not "what we think we are owed". It is what we are OWED from this company for the many sacrifices everyone (not just pilots) has made through two trips to bankruptcy and some very bad economic times.

Yes, we all want to get to that happy future place where all is harmony and bliss, but the road there needs to be paved with recognition of those sacrifices, and now reward for them now that US is making some sizeable profits.

 

[traderjake]

And no, it's not "what we think we are owed". It is what we are OWED from this company for the many sacrifices everyone (not just pilots) has made through two trips to bankruptcy and some very bad economic times.

Don't spend all of "what we think we are owed" in one place.

 

[Ames]

You have got to be kidding me. How does an MOU or new contract not have EVERYTHING to do with what we are owed? And no, it's not "what we think we are owed". It is what we are OWED from this company for the many sacrifices everyone (not just pilots) has made through two trips to bankruptcy and some very bad economic times.

Yes, we all want to get to that happy future place where all is harmony and bliss, but the road there needs to be paved with recognition of those sacrifices, and now reward for them now that US is making some sizeable profits.

When you took your concessions was there a clause in the loa that stated you would be reimbursed for your givebacks? No, there wasn't.

Do you get a paycheck at the end of every two weeks? Is the amount what you agreed to in whatever contract or loa you work under? I'll bet it is.

Therefore, the company owes you nothing. You only think they owe you. As someone already said; "don't spend all that you think they owe you in one place".

With your mentality you will never move forward. It's truly sad that the more sensible members of this pilot group are anchored to those like you.

 

[PullUp]

I seem to remember senior management telling us to take the sacrifices now, live to reap the rewards later.
I didn't know they were referring to them reaping their rewards and none for us!
Don't be bamboozled again.
Get it in writing. Black and white. Ironclad and unconditional.
Cheers.

 

[USA320Pilot]

If the MOU is not passed by the membership I believe we could get hurt in the APA-USAPA McCaskill-Bond SLI and this should be briefed by the ANC during the upcoming roadshows/placed in educational materials.

As one bright and informed pilot said, "Roland (Wilder) made it very clear at the (BPR) meetings that the MOU will help immensely in seniority negotiations and arbitration! Why? Because it puts in writing the growth and value that we bring to this merger which according to the MOU is significant. Without the MOU our argument is only our opinion. Remember APA will be the majority and USAPA will be the minority. Majority rules right? USAPA prevented the West from obtaining a seniority list that was favorable to them. You think APA will not attempt to do the same? The MOU helps prevent this!"

Now, some of us think the Nicolau Award is bad, which it is, but that might be nothing compared to the McCaskill-Bond SLI with the risk USAPA has now created if the membership does not "Vote Yes" on the MOU TA.

USA320Pilot

 

[USA320Pilot]

USAPA Alters Official Document

Yesterday's USAPA Officers message said, "Earlier today (Monday, August 27), USAPA was informed by US Airways President Scott Kirby that the US Airways Board of Directors had approved signing a Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) with AMR. This NDA prohibits US Airways from negotiating with unions at AMR and US Airways over terms and conditions related to a potential merger between the two companies."

Today without reference to any change the website Officers' Message changed the first parapgrah. It now reads, "Earlier today (Monday, August 27), USAPA was informed by US Airways President Scott Kirby that the US Airways Board of Directors has been asked by AMR, as a sign of good faith, to cease union negotiations and behave as if the Non-Disclosure Agreement (NDA) has already been signed. US Airways has agreed to honor that Request."

USA320Pilot

 

[nycbusdriver]

I seem to remember senior management telling us to take the sacrifices now, live to reap the rewards later.
I didn't know they were referring to them reaping their rewards and none for us!
Don't be bamboozled again.
Get it in writing. Black and white. Ironclad and unconditional.
Cheers.

The other "classic" quote is from the ALPA MEC each time they gave away more: "Let's give it up now, and live to fight another day." Of course, that raises the question: Will there ever be another day where the pilots will REALLY fight management over anything? The pilots are great at brawling amongst themselves, but the company? Not so much.

 

[autofixer]

The other "classic" quote is from the ALPA MEC each time they gave away more: "Let's give it up now, and live to fight another day." Of course, that raises the question: Will there ever be another day where the pilots will REALLY fight management over anything? The pilots are great at brawling amongst themselves, but the company? Not so much.

All I see in this MOU is vague, unspecified, gobbidy gook. This MOU will be used to stick it to us, again, at the company's convenience. No minimum fleet protections, etc., and this WILL be a change of control. I guess there is a percentage of the pilot group that will be bought off by a substandard wage increase--11 pieces of silver. I for one, am VOTING NO!