Cia Agrees With Kerry.

[AgMedallion]

Like Enron?

I said utility stock, not energy trading company. When GWB's tax cuts on dividends came about, Enron no longer existed afaik. Utility in my context means companies like Southern Company, Consolidated Edison, SCANA Corp, etc. In other words, electricity-producing companies which pay (and have paid for many, many years) decent dividends and whose rates are controlled by utility commissions. You just threw in the name "Enron" to promote Bush-bashing, even though most of the crap Enron was pulling took place under the reign of Clinton. That's something the libs don't bring up. You know, Enron's skullduggery didn't begin on 1/20/01, despite what the Dems would like us to believe.

 

[NWA/AMT]

Bullcrap!!!! Everyone knows what she meant when she was screeching it to her KoolAid-sipping followers.

[post="176422"][/post]​

So if she was a Republican like Elizabeth Dole, and she raised the same concerns, would she be 'screeching' or would those who support her be 'KoolAid-sipping followers'. Maybe she should just go on a rant like Zell Miller and then, when questioned by the media, challenge them to a duel.

You guys wonder why people are getting fed up with your brand of politics.

Look, I am not a Clinton idolizer who believes, like a simpleton, that there are numerous meanings for basic words like "is" and "alone". If you chose to be played for a fool like that, that's your problem.

No, I found Clinton to be a disappointment because of the unrealized potential of the man and the fundamental weakness of his character, but I don't share your obvious pathological hatred of him or his family. Does Chelsea merit your bile as well?

If George Bush had been hounded from the minute he came in to office as Clinton was, I wonder how you would have handled it. Or if Al Gore had been President on 9/11, would the Republicans be as blindly supportive of him as they demand the Democrats be of Bush. I think not.

Btw, Hillary Clinton was not a member of the 911 Commission. She was just throwing out red meat for her acolytes.

No she wasn't. Does that mean she does not have the right, or the responsibility to ask those questions?

She was just throwing out red meat for her acolytes.

I thought all 'libs' were supposed to be godless vegetarians...

You know what I meant...

You meant that it is only OK to question or even slander others if you do it through a proxy like Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh and keep your hands clean to create the impression in peoples minds that you're somehow 'above all that'.

You bring up crap like the Vince Foster murder allegations which, to the best of my knowledge, were never made in a public statement by any Republican office holder.

To my knowledge I hadn't mentioned that issue, but it is an excellent case of what I was just talking about; a perfect example of the NeoCon attack process in action.

...because such a dolt, if he is a dolt, should never be allowed to earn a degree from either institution.

One word: Legacy. Two more words: Rich Daddy.

Also, fyi, Bush's combined SAT score of 1206 equates to an IQ of 124

Makes you wonder what happened to it in four short years, doesn't it?

The alternative is that you're simply a liberal elitist Democrat snob with a visceral hatred of GWB.

Well, I guess you answered my earlier question anyway:

So anyone who criticizes the president is an elitist snob?

[post="175692"][/post]​

Resort to juvenile name-calling much? Gonna challenge me to a duel?

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm a gun-owning, pickup-driving, blue-collar, retired Marine and a former Republican who knows that the last real Republican President was Dwight Eisenhower and that the NeoCons have put us on a road that can only lead to a negative outcome for our nation and what it stands for. Unlike Bush, I don't just pretend to have middle-class values and a love for our country, I live it.

But you go ahead and think whatever makes it easier to ignore the discrepancies in what the NeoCons are saying and what they are doing.

 

[NWA/AMT]

I said utility stock, not energy trading company.

[post="176427"][/post]​

I hate to have to point this out to you but Enron actually owns several utilities like Portland General Electric, a utility serving Portland, Oregon and either all or part of many other production and distribution companies. The people who invested in Enron and the customers of PGE and companies like it are, and have been, paying for the Enron debacle while the corporate officers who oversaw the debacle get away free with the cash they stole. That's why I used it as an example. Don't believe me? Check out page 16 of the PGE quarterly report:

http://www.portlandgeneral.com/about_pge/c...al/fm10q630.pdf

or the Enron website:

http://www.enron.com/corp/pressroom/factsheets/egs/

When GWB's tax cuts on dividends came about, Enron no longer existed afaik

Enron has not ceased to exist at any point. Don't believe me? Check out their website:

http://www.enron.com/corp/

Utility in my context means companies like Southern Company, Consolidated Edison, SCANA Corp, etc. In other words, electricity-producing companies which pay (and have paid for many, many years) decent dividends and whose rates are controlled by utility commissions.

Yeah, like PGE, a wholly owned subsidiary of Enron.

You just threw in the name "Enron" to promote Bush-bashing, even though most of the crap Enron was pulling took place under the reign of Clinton.

No, I 'threw' it because it is a perfect example of the unavoidable outcome of the NeoCon mantra of deregulation, a process that began in the energy industry long before Clinton came to office and was brought to its disasterous fruition under the auspices of the Republican controlled Congress after 1994.

I never even mentioned Enron's close ties or huge donations to Bush, the favored treatment it received from the Bush administration because of that support, or how the most egregious actions it committed, like trying to bankrupt California, occurred after Bush came into office. But thanks for bringing it up.

Incidentally, 'Bush-bashing' needs no promotion. It promotes itself.

That's something the libs don't bring up.

If they had any sense they would. Enron and all the other examples of industries devastated by the failed NeoCon dogma of "Deregulation Uber Alles!" Even airline deregulation, that obviously failed experiment that the Republicans love to blame Kennedy for, had a NeoCon daddy named Alfred Kahn at the CAB and a Republican co-sponsor; Senator Howard Cannon of Nevada.

You know, Enron's skullduggery didn't begin on 1/20/01, despite what the Dems would like us to believe.

No, but energy deregulation didn't begin on 1/20/93 either and Clinton didn't give Enron an inside track on the Energy Commission like the one that the Bushies gave them and STILL want to keep secret.

 

[AgMedallion]

I hate to have to point this out to you but Enron actually owns several utilities like Portland General Electric, a utility serving Portland, Oregon and either all or part of many other production and distribution companies. The people who invested in Enron and the customers of PGE and companies like it are, and have been, paying for the Enron debacle while the corporate officers who oversaw the debacle get away free with the cash they stole.

I did, in fact, know that Enron owned Portland General Electric because that's a utility I once considered investing in (obviously before Enron got their hands on it because at that point it's common stock ceased trading on the NYSE). I had also read about how PGN's long time employees got royally screwed when their pensions got involved with investments in Enron's stock. FYI, some of the Enron officers have been tried and convicted and more will face the justice they richly deserve. They didn't all "get away free with the cash they stole".

Enron has not ceased to exist at any point. Don't believe me? Check out their website:

Of course they do, just as United Airlines does. But you can't invest in their stock and my example dealt with utility stocks that pay fat dividends, not energy trading companies, including bankrupt ones, run by crooks. Any stock you buy involves risk, even utility stocks. For example, Pacific Gas & Electric, another victim of Enron, or at least Enron-like tactics, or Northeast Utilities with it's Seabrook fiasco, Long Island Lighting with it's Shoreham debacle, etc. Buying several diverse utilities lessens the chance of getting burned.

Look, my only point was to refute the Democratic class warfare bullcrap about only fatcats benefitting from Bush's tax cuts. I am most definitely not the fatcat described by the Dems as the typical benefactors of GWB's alleged destruction of the U.S. economy and his total disregard for the plight of the "common man", i.e. the ones who vote for Democrats in DNC Fantasy World.

Even airline deregulation, that obviously failed experiment that the Republicans love to blame Kennedy for, had a NeoCon daddy named Alfred Kahn at the CAB and a Republican co-sponsor; Senator Howard Cannon of Nevada.

I really admire your ability to blame something signed into law by Jimmy Carter, perhaps one of the most miserable failures in U.S. Presidential history and one of the more intelligent but horribly naive Presidents, on the Republicans. Sure most Republicans supported it, but so to did many Democrats. It wasn't a failure for consumers or for LCCs run by competent management. It was for employees of legacy carriers, my wife included, who worked for companies run by greedy incompetent executives like Wolf & Gangwal of USAirways. But don't blame the Republicans for that. Blame the Boards of Directors who hired people like W&G who were paid enormous sums of money for their total incompetence. Unlike Enron, this was totally legal theft.

 

[delldude]

the NeoCons have put us on a road that can only lead to a negative outcome for our nation and what it stands for.

what in the heck do you think your lib' god hating,gay loving,constituion bashing,tax loving,rule breaking,pinkos' are doing as we speak....??
wake up and smell the roses , senor......
osama...he ain't that bad...just nobody understands him......

 

[AgMedallion]

So if she was a Republican like Elizabeth Dole, and she raised the same concerns, would she be 'screeching' or would those who support her be 'KoolAid-sipping followers'. Maybe she should just go on a rant like Zell Miller and then, when questioned by the media, challenge them to a duel.

I have actually heard Hillary make those statements and yes, it could only be described as "screeching". Much like the rants I've heard Howard Dean and Al Gore make. Is that the only style of so-called speech Dems respond to? 😀

No, I found Clinton to be a disappointment because of the unrealized potential of the man and the fundamental weakness of his character,...

Ahh, then we both agree he was/is a sc*mbag, only you say it in a more genteel way. 😀

but I don't share your obvious pathological hatred of him or his family. Does Chelsea merit your bile as well?

I don't have a patholgical hatred for him. I just think he was/is a sc*mbag. I think he lied under oath, obstructed justice, sold pardons, raped Juanita Broaddrick, etc. He's also a serial adulterer, but I don't really give a damn about that because it's not illegal or material as to whether he was morally fit for office. I don't hate his wife either. I just think she's also a pathological liar who favors many programs bordering on socialism. Actually she probably favors whatever she thinks will get her elected. At one time she was a Goldwater girl, but to be fair, people's views do change as they get older, though usually not in that direction or to that extent. As for Chelsea, I sort of feel sorry for her having a father like that. I know I would be extremely po'd, not to mention disappointed, if I had a father who did the things her father did.

You meant that it is only OK to question or even slander others if you do it through a proxy like Ann Coulter or Rush Limbaugh and keep your hands clean to create the impression in peoples minds that you're somehow 'above all that'.

I really wish you would stop lumping me in with folks like that. I think Ann Coulter is a miserable shrew who is "over the top" 99% of the time. Rush is too blindly big business for my taste. In fact, I wish you'd stop lumping me in with "neo-cons" if that definition includes anti-abortion rights and anti-gun control, because I favor both. You keep tarring us all with the same brush like we're mindless automatons, you know, part of the "vast right wing conspiracy" (copyright pending for Hillary). There are actually some Americans who vote for candidates who they don't agree with 100% of the time. In fact, if you do, chances are you're not really thinking and form your opinion when you find out what "your" politician is for or against.

Sorry to disappoint you but I'm a gun-owning, pickup-driving, blue-collar, retired Marine and a former Republican who knows that the last real Republican President was Dwight Eisenhower and that the NeoCons have put us on a road that can only lead to a negative outcome for our nation and what it stands for.

Funny how you have much in common with Zell Miller, but the two of you have started at opposite points in the political spectrum and are now headed in totally opposite directions. Go figure. 😀

 

[AA-MCI]

It wasn't a failure for consumers or for LCCs run by competent management.

[post="176572"][/post]​

Jury's still out on that one. We'll see how consumers like it when there are a lot fewer airlines.

 

[KCFlyer]

what in the heck do you think your lib' god hating,gay loving,constituion bashing,tax loving,rule breaking,pinkos' are doing as we speak....??
wake up and smell the roses , senor......
osama...he ain't that bad...just nobody understands him......

[post="176576"][/post]​

Hmmm, I attend church regularly...play a pretty active role as a matter of fact, so you'll have to scratch god hating off my resume.

Gay loving? Nope, straight as an arrow, but you're group tends to put "the sanctity of marriage" as being threatened by a civil union between two people that grants them the same rights as a hetero couple. You're side is painting it as though the object is to force priests and ministers to perform a "marriage". That's not what it is...a justice of the peace will work just fine. FWIW, I'm on the verge of a divorce right now...somehow I feel THAT is a bigger threat to the institution of "marriage" that letting a JP marry a couple of gay guys.

Tax loving? Nope....not right there either. But being solidly middle class, I saw very little "benefit" from Bush's tax cuts. And I thought the purpose of those cuts was to "jump start" the economy...you know, allow that newfound extra wealth to "trickle down" and provide jobs. But what I've seen in my area is lots of job losses. Y'all claim JOhn Kerry voted for a 50 cent per gallon gas tax - I'd kind of go along with that...I get sickened seeing ever other vehicle on the road is an SUV getting less than 15 mpg. Guess I'm a tree hugging greenine....I'm on the waiting list for a Toyota Prius - 55 mpg around town. At least I'm reducing my dependence on big oil.

Rule breaking? Nope...honest to a fault actually.

pinko's? I guess when I look at the largest employer in Kansas City lay off tens of thousands of people, then reward themselves with bonuses on top of their 7 figure salaries, I kind of see just a little bit of unfairness there. When I see that same company that laid of tens of thousands of folks to "cut costs" commit to $64,000,000 for naming rights to a new arena, it makes me wonder if corporate America's priorities are out of whack. Guess that makes me a commie pinko.

 

[NWA/AMT]

what in the heck do you think your lib' god hating,gay loving,constituion bashing,tax loving,rule breaking,pinkos' are doing as we speak....??
wake up and smell the roses , senor......
osama...he ain't that bad...just nobody understands him......

[post="176576"][/post]​

If they're reading the majority of your posts, they're probably wondering when the American political process devolved into an elementary school playground.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste. Form sentences Beavis, and learn that the good of the nation isn't served by your sort of sound-bite driven, 'gotcha' politics.

 

[NWA/AMT]

I have actually heard Hillary make those statements and yes, it could only be described as "screeching". Much like the rants I've heard Howard Dean and Al Gore make. Is that the only style of so-called speech Dems respond to?

[post="176579"][/post]​

Nope, but if that's what it takes to wake them up and make them realize that the NeoCon version of 'compromise' is when we all agree to do it their way, then I like it. I've also seen the redoubtable Mrs. Dole use the same sort of technique, although it would not have occurred to me to describe her as 'screeching' or those who support her opinion as 'acolytes' or accuse them of drinking 'Kool-Aid' just because their opinions don't exactly mirror mine.

Ahh, then we both agree he was/is a sc*mbag, only you say it in a more genteel way.

That's not what I said by any stretch of the imagination. I find the same faults that I mentioned for Clinton present in Bush as well, he just has better PR people.

I really wish you would stop lumping me in with folks like that.

Then look to those you support and what they have done to the political process for the last two decades. Examine what they do as well as what they say and the consequences of their actions, both intentional and unintentional. If you wish to lump me in with the 'Libs' you so despise, then I'm comfortable with that. I don't agree with them on many things but I agree on enough that I'm not ashamed to be called one of them. Besides, they are the only ones standing up for a two-party system at the moment and I'm not ready for a world where the only disagreement we're allowed to have is over how wonderful Big Brother is.

FYI, some of the Enron officers have been tried and convicted and more will face the justice they richly deserve. They didn't all "get away free with the cash they stole".

Ooooohhhhhh.........'tried and convicted'......sounds tough. How many? Who? Where will they be doing time? None will do anything like real prison time and lost no real assets as they were careful to place them out of reach. Unlike the employees and investors whose lives and fortunes they ruined.

Look, my only point was to refute the Democratic class warfare bullcrap about only fatcats benefitting from Bush's tax cuts.

I'll make sure to pass that along to the boys down at the day labor pool I pass on my way to work. I'll bet they could really use some good stock tips.

You do realize that the real reason the majority of Americans don't invest isn't that they lack investment advice, right?

I really admire your ability to blame something signed into law by Jimmy Carter, perhaps one of the most miserable failures in U.S. Presidential history and one of the more intelligent but horribly naive Presidents, on the Republicans.

You missed the point. Both parties supported it because it sounded like a good election issue. Indeed, I'm sure the Republicans would have loved for Carter to veto it just for that reason. My point was that the NeoCons, in the person of Alfred Kahn, invented it. It is just another industry dismantled by deregulation.

It wasn't a failure for consumers or for LCCs run by competent management.

I agree with AA-MCI that you might be declaring victory a little prematurely. There have been lots of good LCCs that have already come and gone. It's easy to be successful until the bills come due.

Blame the Boards of Directors who hired people like W&G who were paid enormous sums of money for their total incompetence. Unlike Enron, this was totally legal theft.

I'd rather blame the people who, when the irrationality of such acts are pointed out to them in time to prevent such an outcome, condemn such warnings as being merely the product of an an 'anti-business agenda'. Such abuses are the ultimate reality of praying at the 'free market' altar the NeoCons have built.