TIME FOR CHANGE
Veteran
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060202/economy.html?.v=6
The labor of the US is on a slow down
pretend to pay me I will pretend to work
The labor of the US is on a slow down
pretend to pay me I will pretend to work
Class Warfare
- Thread starter Hopeful
- Start date
local 12 proud
Veteran
- Mar 5, 2004
- 4,265
- 4
It is not the employer who pays wages -- he only handles the money. It is the product who pays the wages.
Henry Ford
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,988
- 9,428
So, you really don't believe that pilots, mechanics, flight attendants, and ramp workers have any say in determining what the market rate is for their profession?
TWU informer
Veteran
- Nov 4, 2003
- 7,550
- 3,767
OP
- Dec 21, 2002
- 5,998
- 347
- Thread Starter
- #20
Are you kidding me? When bankrupt airlines use the bankruptcy courts to throw away pensions and cut wages and benefits while increasing that of the excutives?
When you have a union like the TWU who gives anything that AA asks for in terms of concessions?
No, pilots, mechanics and fligth attendants have NO say in their market rate!
Drinks coffee and smokes cigaretes? I'm a union member and I never drank a cup of coffee or smoked a cigarette in my life!
Anyone denying that Class Warfare exists is in Denial.
The bottom line is that Mgt. types defend obscene bonuses for "non-performance" at Legacy Airlines by claiming protection of "contracts" that call for those bonuses or hiding behind "negotiations" in a "free market" while denying those same attributes to Union Labor held hostage to Unions like the TWU that are prevented from "walking off the job" by archaic laws they help to hold in place.
The Unions likewise prevent their Members from voting them off the property through the same iron triangle: the NMB, the Company and the RLA.
When a Union like the TWU takes 3.7 Million from AA, per year, to maintain the status-quo and the AFL-CIO stands silent while a virtual employment holocaust occurs among those they claim to represent: they are either in denial or an accomplice to the crime.
The bottom line is that Mgt. types defend obscene bonuses for "non-performance" at Legacy Airlines by claiming protection of "contracts" that call for those bonuses or hiding behind "negotiations" in a "free market" while denying those same attributes to Union Labor held hostage to Unions like the TWU that are prevented from "walking off the job" by archaic laws they help to hold in place.
The Unions likewise prevent their Members from voting them off the property through the same iron triangle: the NMB, the Company and the RLA.
When a Union like the TWU takes 3.7 Million from AA, per year, to maintain the status-quo and the AFL-CIO stands silent while a virtual employment holocaust occurs among those they claim to represent: they are either in denial or an accomplice to the crime.
Don’t you find it interesting that pro-management, pro-free for all capitalists, have being telling you that the world has changed, so that they can take away your pay, pensions and benefits, while at the same time they defend their pay and benefits by claiming that this is the way all companies have historically payed their management corps?
If the world has changed for us, how come it did not change for you?
We produce for less so that they can fail for more.
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,988
- 9,428
So, the TWU isn't made up of mechanics and fleet service workers? How silly of me. All this time I thought it was...
Like it or not, the IAM mechanics who accepted concessions at USAir and United, the scabs who turn wrenches at NWA, and the folks who turn wrenches at the MRO's and non-union shops like Jetblue are what determine the market rate. That's the whole point -- being competitive with your peers, even if you don't consider them as equals.
Same thing goes for pilots, their ALPA cousins, and pilots who go to work for sweatshop wages at carriers like Jetblue and Kalitta.
Informer, your peers and those who came before you agreed to the concept of "without further ratification" -- that isn't something anyone outside your union hall forced on you. It's not something I'd take sitting down, but you can't blame management for that any more than you can hold management accountable for what the guys at Dalfart or Timco earn per hour for doing similar work.
Boomer, two of the three examples you gave are examples of union member apathy, to which you have nobody but your peers to blame, so which one of is is in denial here?
KCFlyer
Veteran
Former...Why is it then that "market rate" for executives has increased from a point where the average CEO now makes 431 times as much as the average worker? Not too long ago, that number was only in the double digits. Are executives really worth that much? Personally, it may be the bleeding heart liberal in me, but I don't think ANY executive is worth a 7 figure salary. Heck, Bill Gates "only" earns a salary of one million...and he CREATED the company he works for. I suppose I have a soft spot for someone who is a FOUNDER of a business and is rewarded for the job creation that his idea brought about.
Why is it that when a company hits hard times, labor MUST give up pay and benefits to see them thru, while at the same time, the executives are offered "retention bonuses" for the fine work they did overseeing the company's financial dive? Being a corporate executive is a "can't lose" situation...they reap huge rewards in the good times, and they reap huge "incentive bonuses" in the bad times. I'd be happy to see them participate in "profit sharing"....and if there are no profits to share, why in the hell should they be rewarded?
I thought the name of the game in business was to generate profits...but we've seen how the "leader" of a company is not only rewarded for not showing a profit...they are rewarded for taking the company into bankruptcy (read Ben Steins article on Glen Tilton on the UAL board). And...they are rewarded even more for "successfully guiding them thru the bankruptcy process", when the fact is a trained monkey could do as well because the CREDITORS are trying to get as many cents on the dollar back as they can.
Then you've got the Ken Lays...crying "we're destitute" from the living room of their $5 million dollar condo. Executives need to step out of the corner office once in a while and look at how the labor force...the people without whom his product of service would not exist...are doing. If they had even a shred of decency, they'd forgo their bonuses. But...business is business.
Why is it that when a company hits hard times, labor MUST give up pay and benefits to see them thru, while at the same time, the executives are offered "retention bonuses" for the fine work they did overseeing the company's financial dive? Being a corporate executive is a "can't lose" situation...they reap huge rewards in the good times, and they reap huge "incentive bonuses" in the bad times. I'd be happy to see them participate in "profit sharing"....and if there are no profits to share, why in the hell should they be rewarded?
I thought the name of the game in business was to generate profits...but we've seen how the "leader" of a company is not only rewarded for not showing a profit...they are rewarded for taking the company into bankruptcy (read Ben Steins article on Glen Tilton on the UAL board). And...they are rewarded even more for "successfully guiding them thru the bankruptcy process", when the fact is a trained monkey could do as well because the CREDITORS are trying to get as many cents on the dollar back as they can.
Then you've got the Ken Lays...crying "we're destitute" from the living room of their $5 million dollar condo. Executives need to step out of the corner office once in a while and look at how the labor force...the people without whom his product of service would not exist...are doing. If they had even a shred of decency, they'd forgo their bonuses. But...business is business.
OP
- Dec 21, 2002
- 5,998
- 347
- Thread Starter
- #27
It's a waste of time trying to reason with the pro management, anti-union types like moderator and oneflyer. They don't get their hands dirty for a living. They think they are better than anyone else because they sit in offices or even cubicles looking down upon anyone who dons a union label.
Maybe they shouldn't call the police when a crime is committed against them because the police belong to the PBA. Maybe they shouldn't call the fire department because the firefighters might belong to a union.
They love to preach how unions are what's wrong with the country, and even the world.
They have not a clue as to why unions came into existence!
Not a clue that greedy CEOs and executives would have workers working 12 hour days with no overtime and no benefits while they sit in their ivory towers.
Hey Oneflyer, and Former Moderaator!
HERE'S SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT FOR YOU TWO.
Being in the corporate world where you are better than anyone else, I am sure you are aware that most women do not earn what a man earns in a similar job.
DO YOU REALIZE THAT WITH UNIONS, WOMEN EARN THE SAME AS MEN?????????????????????????????????????????????
Maybe they shouldn't call the police when a crime is committed against them because the police belong to the PBA. Maybe they shouldn't call the fire department because the firefighters might belong to a union.
They love to preach how unions are what's wrong with the country, and even the world.
They have not a clue as to why unions came into existence!
Not a clue that greedy CEOs and executives would have workers working 12 hour days with no overtime and no benefits while they sit in their ivory towers.
Hey Oneflyer, and Former Moderaator!
HERE'S SOME FOOD FOR THOUGHT FOR YOU TWO.
Being in the corporate world where you are better than anyone else, I am sure you are aware that most women do not earn what a man earns in a similar job.
DO YOU REALIZE THAT WITH UNIONS, WOMEN EARN THE SAME AS MEN?????????????????????????????????????????????
eolesen
Veteran
- Jul 23, 2003
- 15,988
- 9,428
Uh, I started out on the front lines, and I've carried a union card. I just don't happen to agree with the sheep mentality that too many unions have, and the impact that has on the members who think differently from the sheep.
The difference between us is that I chose to finish my education and get off the front lines as soon as I had the chance to do so. And I haven't regretted that yet.
OP
- Dec 21, 2002
- 5,998
- 347
- Thread Starter
- #29
LikeI said, YOU DON'T GET YOUR HANDS DIRTY FOR A LIVING, SO YOU THINK YOU'RE BETTER THAN THE REST OF US!
Do you think I am not educated. Not all of us went to aviation high school to get our licenses. I went to a college for both a degree and the licenses. But I'm not an MBA like you, if thats what you are.
So you don't regret the path you chose, good for you. Then don't worry about us union people and how we conduct our lives.
I think what I do is just as important, if not more, that any other job in this business.
KCFlyer
Veteran
You know, if a degree was a requirement to start a company, we wouldn't be driving Ford automobiles, and there wouldn't be any GE engines on airliners.
I've seen a bunch of MBA's who graduated at the top of their class, but they still push when the door clearly says pull.
Do a corporate chieftain's college years justify his seven figure salary...and his seven figure bonus..even when his company is heading for the toilet?
I've not been much of a union guy in the past (ask NHBB), and I don't belong to a union today. But I don't lose sight of the fact that were it not for unions in the past, none of us, union or not, would be earning nearly what we earn today. Gosh...back in the day, they called some guys "robber barons", and they didn't even earn a 6 figure income...and what they did earn certainly wasn't 400+ times what their average worker earned. What has changed these days to justify such a drastic difference between executive pay and "peon" pay?
