Come celebrate the first anniversary of AA's TWA purchase.

[LAXMAN]

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On 9/26/2002 5:53:51 AM bagsmasher wrote:

Is this for real, or just a joke? Who would celebrate this fiasco? Would it be the TWA F/A's and pilots who got a job, but think they got screwed because they didn't get to go to the top of the seniority lists? Or would it be the IAM member's from STL and MCIE who won the lottery, and did go to the top of the seniority list? Or maybe it should be management who should be celebrating the fact that AA is now "THE WORLD'S LARGEST AIRLINE." Or maybe it should be the original AAer's that should be happy that the TWA purchase brought so much "VALUE" to AA. I don't get it. How could anyone celebrate this blunder? I won't be R.S.V.P.ing.
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[blockquote]
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On 9/26/2002 5:53:51 AM bagsmasher wrote:

Is this for real, or just a joke? Who would celebrate this fiasco? Would it be the TWA F/A's and pilots who got a job, but think they got screwed because they didn't get to go to the top of the seniority lists? Or would it be the IAM member's from STL and MCIE who won the lottery, and did go to the top of the seniority list? Or maybe it should be management who should be celebrating the fact that AA is now "THE WORLD'S LARGEST AIRLINE." Or maybe it should be the original AAer's that should be happy that the TWA purchase brought so much "VALUE" to AA. I don't get it. How could anyone celebrate this blunder? I won't be R.S.V.P.ing.
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[img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/7.gif']


OH GOD! IVE BEEN OFF THE BOARDS FOR AWHILE AND THE GUY IS STILL WHINING!!

 

[bagsmasher]

At least I'm whining about something that was wrongly taken from me, unlike the TWA/LLCer's who should all be on the street right now, but are suing to get something back that they willingly gave away. Now that's whining!

 

[twaokc]

Bags,
If you would quit your whining, people would think alot more of you. You are starting to get childess....You need to grow up and check on the history of past mergers...

 

[LAXMAN]

My God! Will he ever stop whining ??

 

[rampguy]

When he can't find anything to whine about, he just makes it up then whines about that.

 

[bagsmasher]

Bags,
If you would quit your whining, people would think alot more of you. You are starting to get childess....You need to grow up and check on the history of past mergers...


I would do that if this was a merger, but since it was a purchase of assets in BK court, I won't. I do know though that when People Express was bought by CO, their seniority started over.
Anyway, since I make things up to whine about, I'll give you guys my perspective of this whole deal, and you can correct me where I'm wrong.

This whole deal started because of fear of the UAL/US deal. Carty was afraid of losing market share. TWA had been shopped around, but no one was interested, especially with the Karabu deal. AA's legal department figured out a way around this problem through BK. Suddenly this failing airline didn't look so bad to AA. The deal was announced, and no one else came forward to better the offer. Carty announced he would give TWAer's full company seniority, thus giving them raises, and letting them bid vacations in front of many original AAer's. The deal went through, and AA paid as much for TWA, as the whole of AA is worth right now. This couldn't have been a worse time to expand and add another expensive hub. In hindsight AA should have been hoarding cash, since we were well into the current downturn.

The Customer Service Agents were integrated first. TWAer's in STL and COS were protected, but throughout the rest of the system, AA gave them 4-10-01 seniority. This resulted in many TWAer's being laid off. It also protected all original AAer's.

The pilots and F/A's mostly went to the end of the seniority lists, and got to keep their relative bidding order flying out of STL. They are now suing to get back what they signed away to get the purchase done.

TWA maintenance and fleet service changed from IAM to TWU. Through binding arbitration, they got DOH in STL and MCIE. This protected a majority of TWAer's. At other stations they either got 25% or 4-10-01. This has resulted in many TWAer's going to the top of the seniority lists. The arbitrator, Mr. Kasher, disreguarded the wording in the TWU contract that no employee on the master seniority list will be adversely impacted... by the integration. He did this to protect as many TWAer's as he could, even though they had signed away their rights in the purchase agreement.

The result of all of this is many upset and bitter employees on both sides, that now hate their employer and their respective unions. And it leaves AA in a worse position now than before the purchase. So I just can't see why their would be a celebration of this purchase. But please feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

 

[twaokc]

Bags,

You are right my boy. All TWAers should have been given DOH, then you would have had something to whine about..
Have a nice day, with your 11 years..

 

[rampguy]

Bags; Your statement about the TWA people going to the top of the seniority list with 25% seniority is laughable. I had 35yrs now I have a little more than 8. This made me nex to the bottom on full time list. I transfered over to stores with NO seniority to protect myself. I'm not whinning about it. I accepted it. YOU continue to whine and whine and whine. Get over it or be miserable. I won't even address the rest of your lies.

 

[bagsmasher]

TWAer's at MCIE and STL did go to the top of the seniority list. TWA was very senior. They recieved 100% occupational. As soon as a system wide seniority list is composed, you will see just how many TWAer's are at the top of the list. If you have early 1980's seniority at AA, you had it made. At MCIE it's nothing to have 25-30 years seniority.

I have the FSC seniority lists for MCI and MCIE. At MCI the AAer's have 3 out of 42 clerks with pre June 1983 seniority. Over at MCIE, the TWAer's have 35 out of 104 clerks with pre June 1983 seniority. And you say that TWAer's didn't go to the top of the seniority lists? Who's lieing here?

Seeing that MCIE is underutilized, if AA sees that it is cost effective to move more and more work from AFW and TULE to MCIE, original AAer's that have to move there will be in for a rude awakening when they have to bid their jobs there.
Okay, what part of that, or my other posts was a lie? If you are going to accuse me of that, you'd better have your facts straight.

 

[rampguy]

The one fact I have straight is this; You're still whinning

 

[bagsmasher]

Hey rampguy, twaokc, LAXMAN, and all other TWAer's, I've got an idea. Let's all resort to name-calling. Yeah, that's it, let's all call bagsmasher a whiner. That will be much easier than arguing the facts. Not only that, but if enough of us call him a whiner, then the others will have no option but to agree with us since we outnumber him.
Oh $hit, I've got an idea. Let's also deny that TWA ever went to bankruptcy, in fact let's also deny that TWA ever lost any money at all. That way we will not have to go through the humiliation of our assets being bought in bankruptcy court, and having to endure those humiliating pay raises. Yeah that's it, if we get enough TWAer's to say the same thing it will come true! They cannot dispute us, since we outnumber them!!!

 

[TWAFA007]

Aloha bagsmasher,

The pilots and F/A's mostly went to the end of the seniority lists, and got to keep their relative bidding order flying out of STL. They are now suing to get back what they signed away to get the purchase done.

Now you know that statement isnt true and maybe that is why you whine. The FACT is the TWA employees DO have a contract with AMR, TWA LLC, & the Unions that protected their seniority. That is the contract they are suing about. The contract replaced the guarantee to their seniority that were given up in their Union contracts. This contract is actually stronger than the old TWA Union contracts and supersedes them. Its the contract that was signed by all parties to, get the purchase done. This contract was approved by the courts and the courts will see that it is enforced. The contract that guaranteed all of TWA seniority rights, including bidding seniority, not just company or pay. Even Mr Carty testified in court before a Judge and said TWA employees seniority rights would be protected. That contract is called the Purchase Agreement. You know, but dont acknowledge, the fact that it clearly states & guarantees TWA Union employees, fair & equitable seniority INTEGRATION. It also guaranteed an appointment of a facilitator and meetings between TWA & AA Unions and that AA would except the results of these meetings. We all know none of this happened. This is why the TWA employees are in court. They want the courts to uphold the contract.

Please, dont give me the Mike argument, we got 100% of Company & 100% pay seniority, both of which are not true, but 0% of bidding. What more do we want. All we want is in the contract,fair & equitable integration of all seniorities. The contract clearly doesnt allow AA to pick & chose which seniority, to be fair & equitable. Everyone agrees, outside of AA, that the most important seniority is bidding. Your whining about bidding seniority all the time clearly shows that it is the most important to you. Why do you think it isnt important to TWA employees?

The APFA took a huge gamble by not honoring the purchase agreement, by not meeting the IAM, and not giving, fair & equitable' bidding seniority. Stapling is not, integration. If they had honored the contract and had just meet with the IAM with a facilitator I am sure a compromise could have been worked out. Now that the APFA decided to make their own agreement with AA without IAM participation they are both in breach of contract. I feel that the majority of TWA F/As would have accepted an integration well short of DOH, but now it will be left up to the courts to decide and I feel they will consider full DOH. Just IMHO.

The hearings begin this month in Brooklyn. Lets see how a staple job plays out there. Its always bad when the courts have to decide what should have been a Union matter. APFA forced the issue. TWA employees are just trying to protect their rights.

If you and Mike feel what we got is fair, then you should have nothing to worry or whine about. So lets stop the arguements here. Its in the hands of the courts, not ours. We just get to sit back and watch the wheels of Justice turn.

Back to the Party in NY. 007 will be there. I will be celebrating the first steps toward our promised fair & equitable seniority integration. Whining will get you no where, but the courts will. See you at the party & the courts.

ALOHA, 007

 

[twaokc]

Mikey

You and Bags sound like you are the same person. Are you???

 

[BillLumbergh]

[P]How 'bout discussing the original subject at hand....Thanks[/P]
[P]BTW, LAXMAN. Welcome back.[/P]

 

[FA Mikey]

For all the complaining about someone whining in here. Its a thread with 1 AA employee and a all the rest are ex TWers.