Dallas Business Journal Article

[Steiner]

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On 11/4/2002 957 PM Busdrvr wrote:

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On 11/4/2002 7:39:28 PM KCFlyer wrote:

Good heavens....how did aviation survive prior to ACARS?
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Everybody lied...
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Kinda like using the logbook instead of cocktail napkins to write up discrepancies? Oh by the ways....

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 11/4/2002 7:39:28 PM KCFlyer wrote:

Good heavens....how did aviation survive prior to ACARS?
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Everybody lied...

 

[WXGuesser]

Back to the issue of pilot salaries/rollbacks:

IMHO, where I think the negotiations will finally end up (at least what would be best for the company) would be:

Pilot salaries remain at the level they are now, or only have a minor raise (1%-2% each year).

The ASM cap on Eagle gets relaxed. I think that is going to be the Company's must-have demand. And it makes a lot of sense. Yes, I know all the pilot's arguments about protecting pilot jobs, etc., etc... Hello????? How many out on furlough now???

Right now, Eagle is one of AMR's strongest assets. But, because of the ASM, flying that could be done by Eagle is being farmed out/reverse codeshared to Trans States/Chautauqua, et. al. Heck, we're now having to give away AIRCRAFT because Eagle can't fly them and stay under the cap (the 14 Embraer 37-seaters we had to give away to bring in the 70-seaters). With the changes and the evolutions necessary to keep the hub-and-spoke model working (and not only can it work, it has to work or too many communities are going to lose air service. That's when airlines will be forced the way of Amtrak. And we all know what a rousing success story Amtrak has been), it will have to allow for a lot more small aircraft from these small communities feeding into the hubs. And AMR has the perfect opportunity to do that using Eagle. They get all the money from those flights instead of having to pay someone to operate them . (a la the Mesas of the world)

It has been shown time and time again you can't shrink an airline into profitability. Right now, the Eagle side is pretty close to profitable. As the economy rebounds (and it will), more people will be flying from those small cities. More profit. And some of those routes may be able to be grown back into mainline routes (financially sound because the CASM is actually lower for the bigger planes) which would mean more money for the company.

I understand the argument that pilots here at AMR have been paid less than their counterparts at other airlines. But I hope that our pilots and their union leaders look at the state of the industry and make a wise decision to keep their demands reasonable to help ensure we all have jobs.

And don't misconstrue that last statement to say that it's all the pilots fault. It isn't. All I am hoping is that the company and the pilots are both reasonable folks and do their share to help bring this airline back out of the red....

Peace!!!!

 

[WXGuesser]

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On 11/5/2002 12:28:50 AM NewHampshire Black Bears wrote:

Carty can "ask" for all the $$$ concessions he wants.
That does'nt mean he's going to get them.

You NEVER, EVER give back ONE RED CENT of your current hourly base wage !!!!!!!!!!
Virginity can only be lost "once" !!!!
("TWU, keep a dime tightly held between your knees, and don't EVER let it hit the floor")
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NH/BB:

I'm willing to bet that Carty & Co. won't ask for dollar-amount concessions. This airline has a history of not EVER coming to the employees and asking for wage cuts. They seem to be bending over backwards to avoid asking the employees to bend over. Work rule concessions and changes like I suggested above, I am willing to bet dollars to donuts will be on the table. But I bet Carty, Arpey, etc. are smart enough to do their level best to not come to the employees demanding paycheck concessions.

And as far as the TWU is concerned, just remember this: Here boy! Roll Over! Play Dead! Good dog!!!!!

Peace!!!!!

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

With the last negotiated(TWU) pay raise coming due 3/1/03, I guess it's a pretty good bet that DC will make his move, sometime between now and then !!

NH/BB's

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Carty can ask for all the $$$ concessions he wants.
That does'nt mean he's going to get them.

You NEVER, EVER give back ONE RED CENT of your current hourly base wage !!!!!!!!!!
Virginity can only be lost once !!!!
(TWU, keep a dime tightly held between your knees, and don't EVER let it hit the floor) [img src='http://www.usaviation.com/idealbb/images/smilies/11.gif']

NH/BB's

 

[j7915]

RV4, I have never advocated lowering wages. My point is that some of the jobs that fall under the mechanics classification do not require broad based skills, therefore the work will either be outsourced or it will be done by OSMs.

When you buy a set of tires, do you want or expect a certified mechanic to do the work? Or do you settle for a person trained in only tire changing?

Without throwing too much mud, it is obvious that the same people who stand on their skills, and look down on others, will turn the arguments around mostly for the sake of being contrarian.

 

[RV4]

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On 11/5/2002 12:23:56 AM j7915 wrote:

RV4, I have never advocated lowering wages. My point is that some of the jobs that fall under the "mechanics" classification do not require broad based skills, therefore the work will either be outsourced or it will be done by OSMs.
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YOUR POINT DOES ADVOCATE LOWER WAGES YOU FOOL!

It wasn't until the TWU went into 1995 negotiations while having the members wear the United we Stand - Contract 1995 T-Shirts, that the job classification descriptions had broad based and narrow based content. In fact, those OSM shops were the pre-retirement position held by those who had paid their dues. It was most impressive how the TWU had the old members ran out of the good jobs into the hangars or retirement.

aapitbull is right, thanks to the TWU, AA has the LOWEST AVERAGE wage in the industry. How does that NOT equate to advocating lower wages?

Fact is, going into the '95 negotiations, we had rid ourselves of the dual pay system. Another fact, the OSM position has not resulted in less outsourcing. There is more outsourced work today than we ever dreamed of in '95.

Funny, you earlier made the claim about strikes, and having someone (OSM's) around to back you. But the truth is, you and the TWU never even considered a strike for stronger scope language. Instead, you sound like company stooges taking a position that it is either outsourced or a new B-Scale scheme must be implemented.

BTW, how come who does the maintenance on the RJ's which require broad based skills using your philosophy was never an issue with the TWU? The Pilots were aware enough to see the threat to their job security and profession. Oh that's right, the TWU gained station staffing formulas that allowed more unionized fleet service clerks, and since the number one goal is more dues payers, this sufficed. Don't give us that Eagle Maintenance is TWU work. Those RJ's are outsourced at a greater rate than the mainline overhaul is presently.

Have you ever ventured outside of the 46 mile radius around the Tulsa base?

 

[BeenThere]

[P]TO NH/BB's,[/P]
[P]I agree wholeheartedly that you never give back one red cent! Never give back ANYTHING! But you have to realize that the TWU does not need it's memebership's permission to either open up the contract and allow for radical changes or to just plain old GIVE BACK. Once the TWU leadership, mainly the International, has been elected to their posts, the TWU Constitution allows for changes to be made without a rank and file vote. So, we may not have a choice at all on the GIVE BACK issue.[/P]
[P]And as far as AMR historically never asking for wage concessions, that is correct. But let me refer you to the INDUSTRY CHANGING CONTRACT of 1983. Crandall was going to dismanlte Cabin service and line cargo and essentially leave the mechanics' alone as far as wages were concerned. However, the TWU, in order to save their hides, allowed the company to begin contracting out traditional mechanic's work. The even let mechanic's work be given to line cargo, i.e. pushbacks and deicing. Since 1983, the mechanic's have systematically been losing work, not only to outside contractors, but to line cargo as well. [/P]
[P]And as far as the RETIREMENT shop comment. it is true that not all those areas require skilled training. But I would hardly refer to to the WHEEL shop as trivial. Pilots, most of all are aware of the energies thrust upon those wheels and brakes on landing and even more so, on landing. [/P]

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

WXGuesser,
I agree with you, and hope that when DC starts to impliment his suggestions, that, that is the way it plays out.

Been there,
I also agree with you. I remember the '83' contract.(The birth of the fsc PART TIMER), and I expect that cabin service is one of the first area's that will be looked at.
Your ABSOLUTELY correct about the TWU international
THEY SUCK !!!!!!!!!!!!
ALWAYS HAVE, ALWAYS WILL !!!!!!!!!!!!

NH/BB's

 

[Buck]

Why don't you do something about it?

 

[ZMAN777]

[P]FWIW,[/P]
[P] Looks like DC just raised the bar a bit. From $3 Billion/yr. to $4 Billion/yr. Yikes!!! Good luck. [/P]
[P][A href=http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/021105/amr_cuts_3.html]http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/021105/amr_cuts_3.html[/A][/P]
[P]Cheers,[/P]
[P]Z [/P]

 

[will fix for food]

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On 11/5/2002 7:02:24 AM RV4 wrote:




BTW, how come who does the maintenance on the RJ's which require broad based skills using your philosophy was never an issue with the TWU? The Pilots were aware enough to see the threat to their job security and profession.



Who does the maintenance on the RJ/s? Are you saying that A/A mechanics should have included a SCOPE provision whereby A/A mechanics should be doing the work on American Eagle planes? Interesting concept.



Oh that's right, the TWU gained station staffing formulas that allowed more unionized fleet service clerks, and since the number one goal is more dues payers, this sufficed. Don't give us that Eagle Maintenance is TWU work. Those RJ's are outsourced at a greater rate than the mainline overhaul is presently.



Where are the RJ/s outsourced to? How many RJ overhaul bases are there that are not on the Eagle seniority list?



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[bagsmasher]

WXGuesser writes:
I'm willing to bet that Carty & Co. won't ask for dollar-amount concessions. This airline has a history of not EVER coming to the employees and asking for wage cuts. They seem to be bending over backwards to avoid asking the employees to bend over.


They had better not bend us over again. They already bent us over and broke it off with the TWA deal.

 

[grndproxwarning]

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On 11/5/2002 6:33:35 PM bagsmasher wrote:

WXGuesser writes:
I'm willing to bet that Carty & Co. won't ask for dollar-amount concessions. This airline has a history of not EVER coming to the employees and asking for wage cuts. They seem to be "bending over backwards" to avoid asking the employees to "bend over."


They had better not bend us over again. They already bent us over and broke it off with the TWA deal.
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Dont forget they eat their young!!!