Delta Cutting Int'l Capacity By 10%

[BABABOOY]

From an earlier theread earlier post but very relevent:
QUOTE (LukeAisleWalker @ Dec 3 2008, 08:24 PM)

Your theory suggests a rather short-sighted group, wouldn't it? Again, I'm not talking about the 60% who didn't vote the last time. Most of the people I know in favor of a CBA would gladly fly a trip w/ a deadhead on front and back ends and know in the long run, they will have a contract when it's all said and done.

To sum up, I don't agree with your logic at all. Most of the ATL people I've talked to are angry at the company about this more than the AFA. (Not that I necessarily believe their anger at the company is justified as DL is trying to maximize the benefits of the merger.) AFA is merely following the rules in place.

Bababooy:

Believe it or not, most are now just finding out that the AFA is stalling.
As far as the one or two flights you pointed out. Don't kid yourself in underestimating
how many flights WILL be affected. And no, Many are not jumping for joy to Dead head
out of their base to DTW/MSP. The F/A's I know are not happy with the equipment situation but understand the reasoning but also understand the AFA couldn't prevent this from happening. Many of those who talk about it are reluctantly accepting. But patient? We will see. Your right you don't have to agree with the logic. Time will tell and I don't think the AFA delaying this doesn't help their cause.

I am glad you see the reasoning now. Again the "preception" of a delay will NOT benefit the
AFA.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

From an earlier theread earlier post but very relevent:
QUOTE (LukeAisleWalker @ Dec 3 2008, 08:24 PM)

Your theory suggests a rather short-sighted group, wouldn't it? Again, I'm not talking about the 60% who didn't vote the last time. Most of the people I know in favor of a CBA would gladly fly a trip w/ a deadhead on front and back ends and know in the long run, they will have a contract when it's all said and done.

To sum up, I don't agree with your logic at all. Most of the ATL people I've talked to are angry at the company about this more than the AFA. (Not that I necessarily believe their anger at the company is justified as DL is trying to maximize the benefits of the merger.) AFA is merely following the rules in place.

Bababooy:

Believe it or not, most are now just finding out that the AFA is stalling.
As far as the one or two flights you pointed out. Don't kid yourself in underestimating
how many flights WILL be affected. And no, Many are not jumping for joy to Dead head
out of their base to DTW/MSP. The F/A's I know are not happy with the equipment situation but understand the reasoning but also understand the AFA couldn't prevent this from happening. Many of those who talk about it are reluctantly accepting. But patient? We will see. Your right you don't have to agree with the logic. Time will tell and I don't think the AFA delaying this doesn't help their cause.

I am glad you see the reasoning now. Again the "preception" of a delay will NOT benefit the
AFA.

BB--I'm not quite sure why you dug up that old post. Are you saying that pro AFA FAs you know in ATL are reconsidering their vote because they may have to fly a 6 day trip (since not enough people put in for the DTW AFP)?? What are the chances of that? There are so few supporters there in proportion to the total FA population, that I'm sure those few will find something else to fly. Or because HNL will be flown on NW eqpmnt for a while? If that makes them change their mind, then I don't think they were very committed to the idea of an enforceable CBA to begin with. Are there not enough other trips to fly out of ATL? I mean, you go all over the world out of there! That would sound like a very shallow, whats-in-it-for me attitude to have. A commitment to a CBA will suvive not flying HNL for a year. (esp. when there are so many other trips to bid).

If you mean, "fencesitters", then YES..you may have a point. But I just don't think there are that many of those left at DL after the last election. Are there?

I guess you're saying that AFA's "stalling" leads to these FA's perception that AFA is making their lives a little more uncomfortable and therefore they will change their minds. That's possible. But again, these are the uncommitted/fence-sitters. Pro-contract will just wait it out.
It's not the DL people that I think will be more turned off; I think it's the NW FAs. They see this whole new world waiting for them (Africa, the Middle East, South America) and the perception that AFA may be making them wait to dig into the proverbial cake, may, in fact, cause some of them to defect---yes. Especially those who weren't enamored with the union in the first place.

More than anything, though, the AFA's "stalling" (I prefer to call it strategizing which, because Obama is busy w/ the economy and has not had time to appt a new NMB member, comes across as stalling) when FAs are anxious, makes them look like they don't have the votes and are not listening to their consituents as a whole (not just activists).

 

[Dignity]

I don't think that's entirely accurate as has been mentioned in the archaic way of RLA's voting process. My opinion is that I think it's far more correct to say "40% said Yes". Of that 60%, one was even a dead FA that the NMB refused to take off the list. Can you imagine if the vote had been 50% and you need the 50%+1 and she was that one????? Also of that 60% many have been out on furlough for over 5 years and probably either didn't get the ballot, tossed it 'cause they've moved on, are so disconnected from the Co. they realized they couldn't make an informed decision, etc...(This has all been covered ad nauseum on this and other sites including AFA's talking points.)

there was a substancial number that obviously supports the idea of representation, but they still need to convince more.

By my calculations they need about 80% of the pre-merger NW FAs and the 40% of DL FAs.
These are based on approximate, rounded-off numbers (of FAs):
21,000 FAs total. 50%+1 would be 10,501
DL's 5,000 (per last election--it was actually 5,300)
+ NW's 5,501 (this is actually slightly less than 80% of the NW group as 80%=5600)
____________
10, 501...Wins the election.

but today.. a lot has changed, buyouts, the retirements and then of course new hires are in the mix at this point.. its going to be close..

 

[BABABOOY]

Yes the point back then and today is that the
anger/impatience is directed not at Delta but at the
AFA. I believe our difference of opinion is that I feel that
they AFA can't and shouldn't count on the same 39% of the
votes from pre-merger f/a's. Right or wrong, the longer this
drags on the less votes they will receive. I think you and I both
know many F/A's are impatient when it comes to their schedule/seniority.
And yes there is pressure on the schedule when you have
flights taken out of a base. i.e ATL-AMS, JFK-FCO, etc.
Again, I have been saying this for awhile, perception is everything.

 

[Dignity]

It's not the DL people that I think will be more turned off; I think it's the NW FAs. They see this whole new world waiting for them (Africa, the Middle East, South America) and the perception that AFA may be making them wait to dig into the proverbial cake, may, in fact, cause some of them to defect---yes. Especially those who weren't enamored with the union in the first place.

some of the juniors want DAL Adays and do not want straight reserve period.. having to stay on that type of reserve while a fence is up during contract negotiations.. this is an issue regardless if some in the union choose to acknowledge it or not.. there is also a group who do not really want anything to do with AFA at all.. or support them, but will that mean the outright forfeiture of union representation? time will only tell..delaying the election doesnt help matters..

 

[Dignity]

Yes the point back then and today is that the
anger/impatience is directed not at Delta but at the
AFA. I believe our difference of opinion is that I feel that
they AFA can't and shouldn't count on the same 39% of the
votes from pre-merger f/a's. Right or wrong, the longer this
drags on the less votes they will receive. I think you and I both
know many F/A's are impatient when it comes to their schedule/seniority.
And yes there is pressure on the schedule when you have
flights taken out of a base. i.e ATL-AMS, JFK-FCO, etc.
Again, I have been saying this for awhile, perception is everything.

that is a very valid point..

they cannot assume the numbers will be the same in the past when so much has changed...retirements, buyouts, seniority integration lawsuits..

seniority is everything...the mere idea this is not being addressed today is unbelieveable and you are absolutely correct..perception is everything..especially in this situation particularily.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

but today.. a lot has changed, buyouts, the retirements and then of course new hires are in the mix at this point.. its going to be close..

Hmm....I'm not sure about that. Possibly.
There weren't that many who took the early-outs. I think the numbers were approx 300 from NW and 150 from DL. New hires---none here to my knowledge since 2008. Those numbers are included. I don't know about NW. You guys hire in the last 6 mos or so?

 

[Dignity]

Hmm....I'm not sure about that. Possibly.
There weren't that many who took the early-outs. I think the numbers were approx 300 from NW and 150 from DL. New hires---none here to my knowledge since 2008. Those numbers are included. I don't know about NW. You guys hire in the last 6 mos or so?

I was referring to NWA.. a lot has changed with our group..since TA3 was ratified.

 

[BABABOOY]

Well it's nice that we can agree on one thing,
Get this vote over with. I will also go out on a limb
and agree with Dig. If the AFA had someone like
Luke in charge and making decisions, I really believe
they would have a good chance of winning. (end compliment 🙂 )

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Yes the point back then and today is that the
anger/impatience is directed not at Delta but at the
AFA. I believe our difference of opinion is that I feel that
they AFA can't and shouldn't count on the same 39% of the
votes from pre-merger f/a's. Right or wrong, the longer this
drags on the less votes they will receive. I think you and I both
know many F/A's are impatient when it comes to their schedule/seniority.
And yes there is pressure on the schedule when you have
flights taken out of a base. i.e ATL-AMS, JFK-FCO, etc.
Again, I have been saying this for awhile, perception is everything.

I see what you're saying..and yes, I agree.
This along with what Dig said about NW reserves having to wait on straight reserve rather than getting A days in a timely manner...ALL of these things cause me to believe, as you guys do, that AFA needs to act and act quickly. Every day they wait, I think they swim against the tide more and more.
But what do we know? We're just a bunch of bitter, conspiracy theorists as the NoWay crowd so delightfully put it. LOL LOL (and to think, many of us actually agree with them on this topic!!)

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Well it's nice that we can agree on one thing,
Get this vote over with. I will also go out on a limb
and agree with Dig. If the AFA had someone like
Luke in charge and making decisions, I really believe
they would have a good chance of winning. (end compliment 🙂 )

That's a nice thing to say, BB. But to be honest, all I want is some security in case something should go amiss...like what happened to Yasuko. (That really made me sit up and take notice.)
and it would be nice to have some help in retirement with health care premiums like NW gets. Other than a little bit of accountability on Scheduling's part (I've had them hang up on me before when I nicely questioned them.), I don't ask or expect too much more. I'd like a pay raise, sure but know we're in tough economic times. So I'm not asking for the moon...just want to be as safe, secure and have accountability all around..all as much as possible. I don't seek out any type of leadership position with AFA. (If anything, I'd probably be on the renegade team to start our own in-house. Yikes..jalbapa is goin' to get me for that one!!!) lol

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

I was referring to NWA.. a lot has changed with our group..since TA3 was ratified.

Yeah, I don't know where the exact total counts come from. We won't really know final counts until ...once again!...they file for the election and put together the roster. It takes a couple of months. Actually it was a couple of months for the 13,000 of us last year's election. Adding you guys in, it may take them longer to come up with a finalized voting list. Ugh.....another reason to get on with it already.

 

[Dignity]

This along with what Dig said about NW reserves having to wait on straight reserve rather than getting A days in a timely manner...

it is a real issue, its one thing to try and tell
someone to be patient with straight reserve, its quite another when someone is actually on straight reserve(for a lengthy time) and see how better it can be on Adays.. there may be some who are content with the situation, there may be some who are not.. and to tell them to wait.. well..

..they just cannot assume people will automatically support representation simply for the fact we are NW..is really my point.

 

[BABABOOY]

Back to the title of this thread,
with the new announcement of an additional 10% cut in
International, I am wondering how this will play out. From what
I understand the recent reduction was for the summer flying no?
Will they offer another one for this fall? or will the over all flying remain
the same? They haven't mentioned anything on the domestic side.
technically the numbers for flying "could" remain the same. I doubt it though.
Should be interesting how this will play out with the vote. With the combined
uncertainty of fall/winter flying and uncertainty of who will fly what flights..
Should be interesting.

 

[Dignity]

Back to the title of this thread,
with the new announcement of an additional 10% cut in
International, I am wondering how this will play out. From what
I understand the recent reduction was for the summer flying no?
Will they offer another one for this fall?

the way I read it was..another 10 percent capacity cut for International in September, that would be 10 percent on top of what is already planned..

or will the over all flying remain
the same?

I would imagine no, they would have to shift flying in order to compensate for any loss of direct non-stop International, where to? probably to a hub that could focus on routing passengers to International hubs continuing with International connections (but that is just a guess)..

They haven't mentioned anything on the domestic side.
technically the numbers for flying "could" remain the same. I doubt it though.
Should be interesting how this will play out with the vote. With the combined
uncertainty of fall/winter flying and uncertainty of who will fly what flights..
Should be interesting.

with our economy in the state it is...more than likely during the summer.. will be the time when they evaluate the projections for fall bookings and then decisions regarding domestic..would come into play..

however the fall/winter is a heavy holiday time so they probably have to pay particular attention to any rise or decrease in bookings from the year prior if any adjustments are necessary I would imagine?

what concerns me is the fact the merger and "International" flying was suppose to be the difference to help guide us through difficult economic times and now that is being cut..

I wonder what the International capacity cuts are like at the other airlines?