Delta Death Watch

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

UAUA $40.15

DALAQ .45
Now remind us again who is doing terribly.

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"DON"T YOU BE STARTIN' ANY TROUBLE ...... FLY" !!

(Only kiddin')

Good to see my FAVORITE Penguins again !

NH/BB's

 

[Fly]

Let's put it this way, if UAL didn't go under than nobody is. UAL proved you could lose billions, rape and pillage employees, make the same stupid decisions but with lower costs thanks to aforementioned raping and pillaging, and then come back and have a riduculously inflated stock price with the same product that took you into bankruptcy.

HA....good luck with that. Spoken like someone without a clue about anything in the industry except her own little southern airline. Don't you remember why all the others were hoping and wishing for United's fall? They wanted what we HAVE and they can't have. They bashed us to try to assure that United wouldn't get the ATSB loans although US's inability to pay their loan was what really put the nail in the UAL coffin for that matter.

Obviously you haven't been on United since bk. Yes they did keep most things the same, as opposed to most everyone else who eliminated almost all amenities. Things they did change, TED, PS service, more efficient routings, more efficient use of employees (unfortunately). And the BEST thing that stayed the same was they didn't lose that outstanding route structure they have, as opposed to trying to expand to a lot of NON money making European countries that everyone is able to fly to if they wanted to lose $$$ also. Remember that the 'old things' are what made United a world leading airline as opposed to an East coast feeder. United had to get their costs down to compete with the lower level of labor costs at other airlines (the LCC's) and the customer demand for less priced tickets. United was able to maintain some inflight dignity and still get those prices down. Perhaps that is why Wall Street recognizes it and the stock price stays high. Quality over quantity.

If Delta is taken over by UAL or someone else stupid enough to want something you can get yourself, how's that stapling going to feel considering that you could have had a union to keep it fair?

Now if you'd like to talk about losing billions, pull out the Delta results from 2005. Don't throw stones darlin.

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Hey there NHBB. Glad to be here.

 

[Skymess]

HA....good luck with that. Spoken like someone without a clue about anything in the industry except her own little southern airline. Don't you remember why all the others were hoping and wishing for United's fall? They wanted what we HAVE and they can't have.

Obviously you haven't been on United since bk. Yes they did keep most things the same, as opposed to most everyone else who eliminated almost all amenities. Things they did change, TED, PS service, more efficient routings, more efficient use of employees (unfortunately). And the BEST thing that stayed the same was they didn't lose that outstanding route structure they have, as opposed to trying to expand to a lot of NON money making European countries that everyone is able to fly to if they wanted to lose $$$ also.
If Delta is taken over by UAL or someone else stupid enough to want something you can get yourself, how's that stapling going to feel considering that you could have had a union to keep it fair?

Now if you'd like to talk about losing billions, pull out the Delta results from 2005. Don't throw stones darlin.

__________________________

First of all, I work for American.

Second of all, I used to work for Northworst as an FA. Many of my former NWA friends work as FAs for UAL and I am buddy for one of them as she is buddy on my passes. We frequently go back and forth on each other's airlines. I also have good friends at DAL and others. I know all about what is wrong at your airline, my airline, and other airlines from an insider/outsider perspective.

It's great that you have faith in your airline. Just don't try dressing up a pig because it's still a pig in the end. I haven't seen anything new or anything brilliant coming out of a U.S. based airline in a long, long time. It's all the S.O.S, different day, different stock price.

Don't start throwing American stones either. We are having a hard enough time, thanks to the Domino bankruptcy effect caused by UAL and US, as well as the stupid moves of my own union. I am well aware of the flaws in the entire industry. Believe me.

Now, in case you lost sight of it this is the DAL board, even though you like to hijack it to speak about UAL in every post.

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

Actually that would be World Traveler. The UAL people just arrive to defend.

Hey, United's up to $41.47

 

[a320av8r]

"Nor do I think the city of Atlanta will allow DL to fail."

What does the city of Atlanta have to do with deciding if Delta fails or not? :blink:

 

[LD3]

Delta is "the biggest loser" right now and if this strike happens they'll be gone. Take that to the bank WT.

Don't forget that United has the best route structure in the world and all the nay sayers expected it to be dismantled during bankruptcy but alas UAL had different plans and kept it all together.

Good luck with your airline and I hope they can possibly crawl out of the hole they are living in now.

Instead of blowing your own horn, why dont you show some compassion for your brothers...Sure DL is the competition, but times like this no one needs to see you flexing UA's muscles, dont forget you just came out of BK also....A lot of people went over to the US board and crapped on them, but a lot of people also went over and gave them encouragment. Everyone in aviation is family, whether you are with the airlines, airports, or vendors, we all hurt when something $hitty happens.

I wish all of Delta's peeps good luck!!!

 

[Cosmo]

WT:

Sorry I'm a little late to this party but thanks for asking for my input into this discussion (my specific responses to your comments are in red.

DL was overhubbed so losing DFW was hardly a great loss. And the best part of pulling out of DFW is that DL opened the opportunity for the Wright Amendment to be debated, with AA facing more and more competition from WN. DL's DFW pull down made alot of sense for DL and competitively opened the door for AA to get hammered.

Nice spin! Delta was the airline getting "hammered" at DFW, with American carrying 59% of DFW's domestic O&D passengers compared to Delta's mere 15% in calendar year 2004 (the last full year of Delta's DFW hub operation) -- a nearly 4-to-1 ratio in American's favor. And the domestic O&D revenue comparison in 2004 was even more lopsided: American had 62% while Delta had only 14%. So that's really why Delta abandoned its hub there.

You do realize that DL released it's unused gates to the DFW airport port the day it pulled down the schedule?

You do realize that most, if not all, of those gates are still empty. I'm sure American is really worried about competing against all of those empty gates.

As for CVG, it is still a very viable hub.

Very viable? It's a hub that has shrunk by more than 25 percent in departures since last summer. And we all know how well "shrinking to profitability" works in the airline industry.

You do realize that DL provides nonstop service to 5 European cities and Hawaii?

All of which are very dependent on that shrinking base of connecting markets since the local CVG O&D numbers are so small for a major carrier's hub. For instance, the 49.4 O&D passengers per day each way in the local CVG-HNL market (during the year ended 9/30/05, the most recent data available) does not even come close to supporting Delta's daily nonstop B767-400 service by itself. So if Delta continues to shrink the CVG hub, these nonstops to Europe and Hawaii will lose the needed connecting passengers and thus will disappear.

UA doesn't have any European from DEN, now does it.

Well, no nonstop flights, although there are some throughs. But despite being the biggest U.S. Transatlantic carrier, Delta doesn't have any nonstop European service from SLC either, now does it?

And come to think of it, DL just might serve as many cities to Europe from it's "tiny" CVG hub than UA serves from all of its gateways to Europe put together.

Nope, guess again.

How many cities does UA serve in Europe with its own aircraft?

Seven currently -- LHR, CDG, FRA, MUC, AMS, BRU and ZRH.

And we'll not talk about how UA has completely thrown away its Pan Am acquisition to S. America.

Not completely -- are you going for the hyperbole award?

And DL uses everyone of its allocated frequencies to S. America unlike UA which pulls down 1/4 of its deep S. America flights during the US summer.

Given Delta's upcoming shift of one of its ATL-GRU daily nonstop flights from "the world's largest hub" in ATL to the JFK-GRU market, with five nonstop competitors already in place (American, Continental [from EWR], JAL, TAM and Varig), in an apparently desperate attempt to hold on to U.S.-Brazil frequencies acquired only last year, perhaps United knew what it was talking about when it claimed that the U.S.-Brazil market could not support all of the available frequencies on a year-round basis, at least from cities other than Miami.

Doesn't sound like network leadership to me.

You're right -- it sounds like concern for profitability to me.

UA excels in just one area of the globe.

While United might dominate U.S. carrier service in just one area of the globe, it was profitable in two areas (the Atlantic and the Pacific) in 2004 and the first nine months of 2005 (according to DOT Form 41 reports). That's a claim Delta can't make, despite United being in Chapter 11 during those 21 months and Delta (again, the largest U.S. Transatlantic carrier) being "solvent" for nearly all of that period.

And like AA, your European network is more than 1/2 tied up at London, a city where facing true competition from other US carriers is blocked.

So you think it's a bad thing for United to focus on offering service in markets that it can serve profitably? And why shouldn't United maximize its competitive advantage where it can?

And I guess you conveniently forget that UA had a hub in MIA competing against AA and pulled it down.

Nope, I haven't forgotten. But let's look at the bigger picture (i.e., "The World According To WT") -- Delta was a distant number 2 at FRA competing against Lufthansa, pulled down its (acquired) mini-hub, and it was a brilliant move. Same theme -- Delta was a distant number 2 at DFW competing against American, pulled down its (home-grown) hub, and it was yet another brilliant move. But United was a distant number 2 at MIA competing against American, pulled down its (acquired) mini-hub, and according to you, it was the greatest disaster to befall the aviation industry since the Wright Brothers. If it was OK for Delta to shift its assets out of poorly-performing markets in search of better (or indeed, any) profitability, why would you blame United for doing the same thing? I find your lack of consistency (hypocracy, perhaps?) in this argument to be troubling.

... and UA still loses money to Latin America.

As does Delta (check those Form 41 stats again)!

Without a doubt, UA has been the poorest custodian of the US' valuable international air rights.

And you can say (type?) that with a straight face knowing that Northwest routes all of its U.S.-Asia flights (including 3 daily U.S.-China flights) via Japan, despite Asia being the fastest growing international region of the world? That doesn't pass the smell test.

Look, we can go back and forth on this all you want. You're not the only one that can use facts selectively, make inferences that omit context, and give opinions that sound like facts when they're really not.

The truth is that neither United nor Delta are in great shape at this time, although since United has exited Chapter 11 it is arguably the somewhat stronger of the two right now. Moreover, neither carrier is currently in any financial position to buy some or all of the other (or anyone else for that matter). So why don't you let this United-vs.-Delta thing go, ignore the obvious wind-up artists on both sides, and go back to defending Delta when legitimate issues are raised?

 

[WorldTraveler]

and I thought you could come up with a few decent facts of your own.
I'm still waiting on an analysis of your own showing UA's strengths. And UA had better be in better shape than DL at this point in time. UA spent over 3 years in bankruptcy but at least one respected industry analyst (except by the UA fans that dont' like what he says)doesn't think UA has positioned itself so well. DL isn't through with the process but I'm mighty certain they will do a better job of restructuring their business than UA did while using a lot less time and money. UA should have been profitable in all 4 reported regions of the globe in 2004 since they were on their way out of bankruptcy but they weren't.

and as for context, you have pulled your quotes out of context as well. You also have not done the appropriate analysis to justify some of your responses, particularly on the schedule that DL maintains in CVG - all of which is sufficient to support the European service. It's harder to say about Hawaii because it is more leisure oriented and could well get squeezed but DL management doesn't appear to have any sacred cows. If CVGHNL doesn't work, I'm quite certain they'll pull it down.

but I appreciate your ability to even quote a fact even if they are skewed or incomplete. However, there is absolutely no basis for comments that DL is on the verge of shutdown or that it's route system is worthless. While you haven't made them, your fellow-UA posters have.

You're a smart person, Cosmo. I'd suggest that you channel some of your time on the board into providing constructive information and engaging in legitimate business analyses since there are obviously few people on this board that engage in that kind of discussion. As with any facts you are free to present them in the way you most seem fit. Discussing nothing proactively leaves you in a defensive mode. You're capable of more than that.

Yes, DL and UA are both in trouble but I have yet to see a US airline that has got it consistently figured out. This industry cycle won't be sorted out for several more years. Instead of waiting, I think most of the people here would like to talk about what is relevant today.

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

You think United hasnt got it figured out but believe BANKRUPT Delta does? Why is that? Is it because of the $40.94 stock price at UAUA vs the $0.455 at Delta?

Cosmo laid you out yet you STILL insist that Delta is the Great White Hope. So how's the pilot vote coming along? Ch 7 if you aren't careful.

 

[Borescope]

Instead of blowing your own horn, why dont you show some compassion for your brothers...Sure DL is the competition, but times like this no one needs to see you flexing UA's muscles, dont forget you just came out of BK also....A lot of people went over to the US board and crapped on them, but a lot of people also went over and gave them encouragment. Everyone in aviation is family, whether you are with the airlines, airports, or vendors, we all hurt when something $hitty happens.

I wish all of Delta's peeps good luck!!!

LD3,

Don't you know this is S.O.P. for UA. They always had their noses up in the air. The only time you saw them humbled was when they went BK. It was quite refreshing. Too bad it was short lived. They're back to the mighter than thou attitude, however the book isn't completely closed yet...........Stay Tuned. Good luck DL.

 

[Deleted by Moderator]

Hysterical. Borescope works at United. Guess he's stuck on the crappy shift and isn't a bit happy about it. LOL