Todd B
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Please don''t ask or GIVE anyone your employee and/or frequent flyer number. Respect the privacy of our members.
Thank you,
Todd
Thank you,
Todd
ENRON MATH
- Thread starter AAONO
- Start date
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Seventy five posts since April 18th. That is almost fifteen a day. Does that tell you something?
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Seventy five posts since April 18th. That is almost fifteen a day. Does that tell you something?
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Yeah, that''s a heck of a lot less than many of the employee posters.
I'm not about to post my FF number on this board. I'm Executive Platinum with just over 1.1 million lifetime miles (Million miler status gives lifetime Gold status). Most of my travel is international (LGW, FRA mainly, used to use AA for ARN before it was cancelled), so I'm not necessarily on AA domestic flights every single week like a great number of FFs are. Believe it or not.
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On 4/23/2003 10:22:08 PM air_guy wrote:
Hey AAObesrver. We have enough problems of our own to have an outsider throwing more wood into the fire. Badmouthing AA employees or the unions that represents them is just making people more frustrated and angry. Cut it off please. I am AA mgmt I am too, upset with what has happened. I am not going to argue wheather the payments were necessary but there was no reason not to disclose them. They have all the right to be angry. I just hope despite that we can find away to avoid BK... that is not going to be as easy as many believe.
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On 4/23/2003 10:22:08 PM air_guy wrote:
Hey AAObesrver. We have enough problems of our own to have an outsider throwing more wood into the fire. Badmouthing AA employees or the unions that represents them is just making people more frustrated and angry. Cut it off please. I am AA mgmt I am too, upset with what has happened. I am not going to argue wheather the payments were necessary but there was no reason not to disclose them. They have all the right to be angry. I just hope despite that we can find away to avoid BK... that is not going to be as easy as many believe.
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Understood and agreed. I haven''t badmouthed any AA employees personally, but have definitely given my view on the unions. I agree that it is not helping.
Good luck to you and to all the employees. Regardless of the internal problems at AA and "spirited" discussions on here, I truly believe AA has the best inflight service of any US airline and am really pulling for all of you to make it through this. Your customers need you and want you to succeed.
Take care.
Here is a thought...
Why don''t we seriously try to ascertain if there is any truth in what the other side is saying?
On one side, we have AAOutsider. He blames the unions for some, if not most, of AA''s financial difficulty. Could there be any truth to that? He thinks that AA''s unions are blowing the retention bonuses and pension trust all ouf of proportion. It is a common practice at most, if not all, major corporations. He may also think that the unions are simply using the retention bonuses as a way to scuttle agreements that they never wanted in the first place. He probably also thinks that AA had no choice but to tell the unions to accept certain labor cuts and work rule concessions because there wasn''t much time before grace periods expired on some outstanding loan payments. Some things to consider: Costs (including labor) at AA far exceed revenue. AA is losing millions per day. Employees negotiated concessions, voted in favor of those TA''s, and now are refusing to honor them. Retention bonuses, especially at companies with an uncertain future, are quite common. What is the alternative to these TA''s given that cash flow pressures dictate that if these TA''s do not go into effect on May 1 the company has no choice but to file for bankruptcy? Do the unions know that? And, are they fully aware that what Carty has been saying about the creditors wanting $500 million more in labor concessions is true? Do the unions even want to keep AMR from filing for bankruptcy? Do they, as it appears to AAObserver, want to drive AA out of business? Is he right to feel that if AA''s own employees won''t support the carrier why should he with his business?
On the other side, we have a number of proponents. Summarizing their case as best I can: They blame management for all of the company''s troubles. They wonder why AA hasn''t simply raised fares to make more revenue. They now feel that they can no longer honor the concessionary agreements because of the existence of those retention bonuses and pension trusts. They didn''t like the TA''s in the first place because they either felt that they cut too deeply, lasted too long, or were not fairly negotiated. Some things to consider: How much can management be blamed for the events of 9/11, the severity of the economic downturn, and the effects of the Iraq War and terrorists threats? Could AA simply raise fares against competitors who refuse to match the price increase? Were employees deceived by a management team that withheld information about the bonuses and trust? If part of the reason for the union''s lingering dissatisfaction with the TA''s, Carty, or both, is that they did not like the process that led to these agreements, can there be a process led by Carty or someone else that arrives at TA''s with the same dollar value as the original ones, but in a way fair to all? Or, is that point moot since really no one wants to give up pay or vacation time since it is not their fault the airline is losing millions per day? And, should the fact that the company is losing millions per day be a concern for the unions? Do they have any stake in that? Should they make any effort to make the airline competitive with its peers who either through bankruptcy or through tougher negotiations have lower wage costs? Should they care that one of the reasons that Continental is losing less money is that its employee costs are about 15 to 20% less than AMR''s? Should employees care about that enough to do something so that in the future, provided AMR survives, Continental does not expand at the expense of AA?
Maybe, if we try to ask the questions and to consider the issues that brought the opposing side to reach the conclusion he/she did, we might understand each other better and not have to resort to adhominem attacks on AAOutsider or unions in general.
There is even a chance we might create some impetus to rescue AA.
Why don''t we seriously try to ascertain if there is any truth in what the other side is saying?
On one side, we have AAOutsider. He blames the unions for some, if not most, of AA''s financial difficulty. Could there be any truth to that? He thinks that AA''s unions are blowing the retention bonuses and pension trust all ouf of proportion. It is a common practice at most, if not all, major corporations. He may also think that the unions are simply using the retention bonuses as a way to scuttle agreements that they never wanted in the first place. He probably also thinks that AA had no choice but to tell the unions to accept certain labor cuts and work rule concessions because there wasn''t much time before grace periods expired on some outstanding loan payments. Some things to consider: Costs (including labor) at AA far exceed revenue. AA is losing millions per day. Employees negotiated concessions, voted in favor of those TA''s, and now are refusing to honor them. Retention bonuses, especially at companies with an uncertain future, are quite common. What is the alternative to these TA''s given that cash flow pressures dictate that if these TA''s do not go into effect on May 1 the company has no choice but to file for bankruptcy? Do the unions know that? And, are they fully aware that what Carty has been saying about the creditors wanting $500 million more in labor concessions is true? Do the unions even want to keep AMR from filing for bankruptcy? Do they, as it appears to AAObserver, want to drive AA out of business? Is he right to feel that if AA''s own employees won''t support the carrier why should he with his business?
On the other side, we have a number of proponents. Summarizing their case as best I can: They blame management for all of the company''s troubles. They wonder why AA hasn''t simply raised fares to make more revenue. They now feel that they can no longer honor the concessionary agreements because of the existence of those retention bonuses and pension trusts. They didn''t like the TA''s in the first place because they either felt that they cut too deeply, lasted too long, or were not fairly negotiated. Some things to consider: How much can management be blamed for the events of 9/11, the severity of the economic downturn, and the effects of the Iraq War and terrorists threats? Could AA simply raise fares against competitors who refuse to match the price increase? Were employees deceived by a management team that withheld information about the bonuses and trust? If part of the reason for the union''s lingering dissatisfaction with the TA''s, Carty, or both, is that they did not like the process that led to these agreements, can there be a process led by Carty or someone else that arrives at TA''s with the same dollar value as the original ones, but in a way fair to all? Or, is that point moot since really no one wants to give up pay or vacation time since it is not their fault the airline is losing millions per day? And, should the fact that the company is losing millions per day be a concern for the unions? Do they have any stake in that? Should they make any effort to make the airline competitive with its peers who either through bankruptcy or through tougher negotiations have lower wage costs? Should they care that one of the reasons that Continental is losing less money is that its employee costs are about 15 to 20% less than AMR''s? Should employees care about that enough to do something so that in the future, provided AMR survives, Continental does not expand at the expense of AA?
Maybe, if we try to ask the questions and to consider the issues that brought the opposing side to reach the conclusion he/she did, we might understand each other better and not have to resort to adhominem attacks on AAOutsider or unions in general.
There is even a chance we might create some impetus to rescue AA.
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Understood and agreed. I haven't badmouthed any AA employees personally, but have definitely given my view on the unions. I agree that it is not helping.
Good luck to you and to all the employees. Regardless of the internal problems at AA and "spirited" discussions on here, I truly believe AA has the best inflight service of any US airline and am really pulling for all of you to make it through this. Your customers need you and want you to succeed.
Take care.
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AAObserver,Understood and agreed. I haven't badmouthed any AA employees personally, but have definitely given my view on the unions. I agree that it is not helping.
Good luck to you and to all the employees. Regardless of the internal problems at AA and "spirited" discussions on here, I truly believe AA has the best inflight service of any US airline and am really pulling for all of you to make it through this. Your customers need you and want you to succeed.
Take care.
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You say that we have the best airline right? Well being a FF you have spent 99.9% of your time dealing with union employees. The best in the world according to you.Shouldn't the best in the world get the most pay?
There are many of us who are willing to take our share of the cuts, we know they are going to have to happen. We just ask that it be equal to everyone in the company. That goes for upper and lower management as well as Pilots, F/A's and Groundworkers.
I think it is pretty simple. The company said "We need your help!" We then attempted to talk and do our part in good faith. We were lied to and decieved, which does happen from time to time. But it does not usually happen when the come tells us that they are opening the books for all to see.
I know you are anti-union, but AA employees are the most proffesional in the world. We have pride in what we do and how we do it. We want our company to succeed, it was not the 45 V.P's that made us the number one airline in the world, it was everybody working together! Imagine that, the unions and the company working together!
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