Equipment changes BOS-ATL

[737823]

I have upcoming flights to ATL next month and noticed they're on A320 and 737-800 (w/o live TV). Until fairly recently DL operated exclusively 757s and occasional 738s on this route but it seems MD-88, MD-90, and A320 are the new norm on this route. Where did the 757s go? Years ago there would be multiple 767s and even MD-11s on the route.

I also have seen DC-9s (!) flying to DTW, outrageous to fly a 35+ year old aircraft, I thought those were retired a long time ago.

Josh

 

[QA4Jet-A]

I have upcoming flights to ATL next month and noticed they're on A320 and 737-800 (w/o live TV). Until fairly recently DL operated exclusively 757s and occasional 738s on this route but it seems MD-88, MD-90, and A320 are the new norm on this route. Where did the 757s go? Years ago there would be multiple 767s and even MD-11s on the route.

I also have seen DC-9s (!) flying to DTW, outrageous to fly a 35+ year old aircraft, I thought those were retired a long time ago.

Josh

...ask Southwind, He knows everything 🙂

 

[xUT]

...ask Southwind, He knows everything 🙂

IMHO, he's waiting for WT to explain it in 5000 words or more... 😱

 

[QA4Jet-A]

IMHO, he's waiting for WT to explain it in 5000 words or more... 😱

LMAO ! Hope all is going with you Brother !

 

[QA4Jet-A]

WTG Airline Forums. I have tried to Edit a post 4 times.... No Go! Please fix it.

 

[eolesen]

WTG Airline Forums. I have tried to Edit a post 4 times.... No Go! Please fix it.

It looks like there's now a (stricter) time limit on how long after posting that you can edit... there's a thread going in the Water Cooler that Kevin is monitoring -- might be worth posting the issue there.

 

[WorldTraveler]

ON the topic at hand, DL has long said that the preference for video equipped aircraft is long haul flights, not business markets like BOS-ATL.

DL also has to rotate most fleet types thru ATL which is the major maintenance base.

 

[737823]

ON the topic at hand, DL has long said that the preference for video equipped aircraft is long haul flights, not business markets like BOS-ATL.

DL also has to rotate most fleet types thru ATL which is the major maintenance base.

Thanks, it seems many short routes have AVOD yet long flights don't. For example, BOS-SLC is a standard 757 yet BOS-JFK is 73H. Is the in-flight amenities information not real time? Is it possible flights that show no AVOD may have it when I get to the flight?

Josh

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL made the commitment they would have WiFi on the entire domestic fleet CR7s and larger.... they have made no commitment on AVOD but I think it is clear they are not going to move forward w/ more domestic AVOD probably instead using the system they are testing on the 753s - content available using your own laptop etc.
It is always possible that you will get more or less than what was promised but every company should be trying to pleasantly surprise you by giving you more than you thought you would receive than the other way around.

The DC9s are being retired because of their fuel inefficiency... they are still highly durable aircraft and the vast majority of passengers don't care much about product on a short flight which is exactly what the DC9s do. Product becomes more and more important w/ flight length. That is exactly why AA has held onto older 762s even though they are less efficient but they will ultimately have to use another product which will not be as spacious- even in the seats are newer - than the 762s about which you have been in favor of AA continuing to use.

 

[Kev3188]

I also have seen DC-9s (!) flying to DTW, outrageous to fly a 35+ year old aircraft, I thought those were retired a long time ago.

Josh

What's so outrageous about it? All of them were overhauled/refurbished/upgraded in ~ 2000. On top of that, they've been paid off for some time, which gave NW (and now DL) the flexibility to either fly or park them, depending on the market. Furthermore, they could upgrade/down grade any given route, simply by swapping in/out a -30/-40/-50 for one of the others as needed. With the benefit of hindsight, the decision to upgrade them all was brilliant, and paid off (no pun intended) for NW nicely.

As someone who plays with other people's money for a living, that shouldn't be "outrageous" at all to you; it should make perfect economic sense.

P.S. The 30's & 40's are all retired. The 50's will be around for a little while longer yet...

 

[WorldTraveler]

Indeed, yes, Kev.
It is precisely the ability to cost effectively flex capacity that has allowed DL to manage several downturns since it came out of BK. Airplane costs are just part of the issue. Fuel is obviously the biggest part now - and why the least fuel efficient aircraft have some of the lowest utilization whenever possible. DL's success with voluntary programs has allowed them to flex the labor component better than most airlines.

The irony of course is that the D95s are being kept around a little while longer in hopes that DL can finalize the deal with WN to take the 717s which will be another low acquisition cost aircraft with comparable fuel burn to newer, costlier equipment.

 

[737823]

What's so outrageous about it? All of them were overhauled/refurbished/upgraded in ~ 2000. On top of that, they've been paid off for some time, which gave NW (and now DL) the flexibility to either fly or park them, depending on the market. Furthermore, they could upgrade/down grade any given route, simply by swapping in/out a -30/-40/-50 for one of the others as needed. With the benefit of hindsight, the decision to upgrade them all was brilliant, and paid off (no pun intended) for NW nicely.

As someone who plays with other people's money for a living, that shouldn't be "outrageous" at all to you; it should make perfect economic sense.

P.S. The 30's & 40's are all retired. The 50's will be around for a little while longer yet...

Thanks Kev. Of course I understand the capital costs of the DC-9s are much lower than newer A320/737 aircraft. Likely already paid for in full and fully depreciated. At the same time, passengers do expect a modern, clean, and safe aircraft. If someone has a fully paid for 2001 Camry (maybe the case of the DC-9 is a 1980s Jeep) and trying to save on gas so purchases a brand new Prius its unlikely at current gas prices the purchase will be justified. Of course, there are other things to consider (aesthetics, ego) but you get my point. You know the planes better than me, but my perception is that the A320/319 feels safer and more pleasant to travel on. Why is DL seeking 717s? TWA had them, AirTran had them and dumping them with the merger, I think Hawaiian still uses them for inter island services. DLs fleet strategy is interesting. Rather than investing in more 777s or 787s their answer is to refurbish 767s and acquire second hand short haul aircraft other carriers aren't interested in. Not pretending to be an expert, but I find it compelling other carriers are taking a different approach.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Passengers certainly do expect a clean/safe aircraft, and I think that the DC-9 actually still delivers that. No, there's no AVOD, but the interiors are up-to-date, and the planes themselves are well maintained mechanically.

I rarely fly, but prefer the A319/320 as well. As far as working them, I *definitely* prefer the 'bus- it's arguably the most "ramp-friendly" plane out there. JMHO.

I think they're pursuing the 717-and MD90's- for the simple reason that they can acquire outright a relatively new A/C that meets network needs much cheaper than leasing-or buying- other types (737-900 order notwithstanding). They've stated publicly that the long range goal is to own an A/C for 20-30 years, as opposed to leasing. in the rumored 717 case, it's a good fit for many ex-LGA routes, and some shorter haul out of MSP & DTW. I'm sure there's other places it'd work as well .

 

[eolesen]

Putting AVOD on an airplane intended for a 90-120 minute stage length is a huge waste of resources. Wifi is a far better investment, especially if you look at the streaming video servers that some airlines are considering with GoGo.

Age of the airplane is insignificant to probably 95% of all customers. Douglas built a rock solid aircraft, which is why you still see DC3's, DC4's DC6's, DC7's and DC8's in commercial service today. The few Boeings remaining of similar vintage are usually static displays at museums. And good luck finding a high cycle 30 year old Airbus...

 

[WorldTraveler]

I am pleased to say that I agree with both of you, Kev and E, adding only that the motivation behind DL's intention to buy quality used aircraft and keep them longer is because the airline industry has not even historically made enough money to pay for the interest on the investment. Thus reevaluating the US airline business model means cutting costs in every category and that includes tossing the historic notion that airplanes can be used for 15-20 years and then replaced with new ones. McD-D built airplanes that last forever and while they are not "sexy" they are functional and do what is needed for domestic transportation. They can carry Wifi in capacities high enough to satisfy the entertainment/connectivity needs of just about every passenger on a flight of the length of those aircraft types.

The 717 deal, if it occurs, will be part of a movement towards upgauging the size of the average domestic plane, starting with pushing 50 seaters out the door. Thus the 70 seaters (or 64 seat or whatever w/ FC) become the new base aircraft with the 717s replacing many 70/76 seaters today and up the chain. The 739ERs will replace both smaller 320s and M80s plus larger 757s.
What will happen is that the average aircraft size for domestic carriers on domestic routes, including regional carriers, will move alot closer to what WN offers, without regional aircraft. The economics of small domestic aircraft don't work and they will be pushed out in favor of larger aircraft.
Thus there are significant implications for both small cities and the number of flights that many cities receive as the number of seats per flight increases. Having fewer large, strong hubs will be far more important than having multiple focus cities/small hubs with significant RJ activity today.