Considering that the two biggest mouth pieces on this thread are ignorant to the true job being described, let me assure you, most pilots would prefer getting paid for all hours on duty for less pay. You know why, because they spend a considerable amount of time NOT getting paid each duty day (and I'm not speaking about the layover) It would be in the pilots favor to get paid for duty time, which is exactly why NO airline wants that to happen.
Funny that whenever I ask for specifics, y'all clam up. That only tells me one thing...that I'm far closer to the truth than you want people to believe. Answer some questions before trying to defame me. Other than that you serve no purpose here. Can you actually use some business sense?
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2003
- Messages
- 21,709
- Reaction score
- 10,662
I've been way too absent on this thread. Time to get to work.
NHBB,
don't worry about the DL pilots striking. The ranking of richest counties in the US just came out and what do you know but Fayette County (Peachtree City) came out as the 14th richest county in the US of A; those DL pilots aren't going to give up that ranking by risking a DL shutdown but they sure don't want to see Fayette move down a couple notches in the ranking, either. Heck, DALPA can't even convince retired pilots to stay away from work since they keep coming back to work as pilot contractors for DL which sure ticks off the active pilots.
Over 40% of DL's mainline fleet is composed of 757s and 767s since DL has the world's largest fleet of 767s and is either no. 1 or 2 on 757s w/ AA. That is part of why the average pilot salaries are so inflated. ALPA has been trying to argue Pilot CASM numbers but DL has refused to acknowledge that it is a number in that category.
DLFlyer,
DL does weight and balance almost exclusively from ATL through an automated program and a dedicated group of employees (I have a friend that worked in that dept.) Pilots are capable of doing it but I would doubt if a DL pilot does a manual WDR more than once a year except perhaps for some of the pilots that fly international charters - and even there the company has the ability to transmit the WDR from ATL to the cockpit via ACARS.
Although there is little incentive for the pilots to move as long as the contract is tied up in bankruptcy, you can bet that DL will make it clear that they will take whatever actions they have to to make things work the way they intend. The judge and the pilots best recognize that it is DL that has the ability to furlough pilots and it is simply a court filing that can eliminate dozens of jets from the fleet. I can assure you DL will get what it wants and will not be humiliated by a mouthy judge or a cocky union. And no one really cares if the pilots think all trust is gone with management since management came to that conclusion about six months after DL's first request for concessions when ALPA was still arguing the company didn't need anything.
The formula works like this: ALPA can shut the whole airline down and result in a loss of 60,000 jobs; DL management can park airplanes one by one until they get what they want and every pilot job associated with that airplane is gone. They don't need anyone's permission to eliminate those airplanes. Management ultimately is the entity that manages the assets and hires and fires people.
NHBB,
don't worry about the DL pilots striking. The ranking of richest counties in the US just came out and what do you know but Fayette County (Peachtree City) came out as the 14th richest county in the US of A; those DL pilots aren't going to give up that ranking by risking a DL shutdown but they sure don't want to see Fayette move down a couple notches in the ranking, either. Heck, DALPA can't even convince retired pilots to stay away from work since they keep coming back to work as pilot contractors for DL which sure ticks off the active pilots.
Over 40% of DL's mainline fleet is composed of 757s and 767s since DL has the world's largest fleet of 767s and is either no. 1 or 2 on 757s w/ AA. That is part of why the average pilot salaries are so inflated. ALPA has been trying to argue Pilot CASM numbers but DL has refused to acknowledge that it is a number in that category.
DLFlyer,
DL does weight and balance almost exclusively from ATL through an automated program and a dedicated group of employees (I have a friend that worked in that dept.) Pilots are capable of doing it but I would doubt if a DL pilot does a manual WDR more than once a year except perhaps for some of the pilots that fly international charters - and even there the company has the ability to transmit the WDR from ATL to the cockpit via ACARS.
Although there is little incentive for the pilots to move as long as the contract is tied up in bankruptcy, you can bet that DL will make it clear that they will take whatever actions they have to to make things work the way they intend. The judge and the pilots best recognize that it is DL that has the ability to furlough pilots and it is simply a court filing that can eliminate dozens of jets from the fleet. I can assure you DL will get what it wants and will not be humiliated by a mouthy judge or a cocky union. And no one really cares if the pilots think all trust is gone with management since management came to that conclusion about six months after DL's first request for concessions when ALPA was still arguing the company didn't need anything.
The formula works like this: ALPA can shut the whole airline down and result in a loss of 60,000 jobs; DL management can park airplanes one by one until they get what they want and every pilot job associated with that airplane is gone. They don't need anyone's permission to eliminate those airplanes. Management ultimately is the entity that manages the assets and hires and fires people.
So...if I were to look at the numbers...even if it is 135-140k...at 75 hours a month, the pilots essentially make the equivalent of 288k-299k per year (if I were to pro-rate the salaries up to a 160 hour month which is the MINIMUM that most other professionals work.)
What in the world are you talking about? I gave you where the 1 billion came from and now you're screwing up more numbers. Look Chapter 12, it's obvious that you really don't have much understanding of my profession or how any airline employee works or how they're compensated. Go back and actually read some of the many threads that have been posted on this forum about this topic and then you can come back and debate. Otherwise, you're wasting everyone's time.
I just cannot feel sorry for the group. It has been a good ride but take a look at the world around and notice that the equiv of 288-299k is pretty unrealistic. No, UALdriver...no envy...more like abhorance. How can you not get it?
I don't get it? I'm the one working as a pilot at a major airline. I understand how it all "works." You're on the outside looking in, making wild a$$ remarks about an industry and compensation levels that you don't even understand.
Ch12, if you feel like you need to discuss pilot salaries further, just so we can understand where you're coming from, could you please in you next diatribe about pilot compensation please list your profession and give us the numbers you filed with the IRS from line 36 of your 2002-2004 1040's? I figure that since you feel free to judge another profession's salary, we all should get to determine if your level of compensation is appropriate for your work. I just want to look at it while using a little "business sense."
World, I think the point that DLflyer was trying to make is that one can't look at a pilot's schedule (or flight attendant's for that matter) working 75 hours a month and make a direct correlation to a typical hourly worker working 40 hours per week, and then go and imply that airline flight crew don't work "full time." Obviously we don't calculate weight and balance in the cockpit (nor should we) on large transport category aircraft. But there are many, many hours we sit in the cockpit or in the cabin and are simply not paid our hourly rate.
There was a large group of DALPA pilots that retired early en masse for fear of losing their lump sum pension benefit and/or their unhappiness with their anticipated post bankruptcy pay/work rules. DALPA wasn't trying to convince them to stay away from work. In fact, DALPA worked with the company in order to come up with a solution to the problem created by this mass exodus. Obviously, this ticks off some of the junior guys in DAL's seniority based pilot system, but had DALPA not reached an agreement with the company, there would have been a lot of empty widebody cockpits just when DAL is depending on those aircraft the most. Not to mention the huge spike in pilot training costs and lost pilot productivity DAL would have had to endure during this very inconvienent time.
What in the world are you talking about? I gave you where the 1 billion came from and now you're screwing up more numbers. Look Chapter 12, it's obvious that you really don't have much understanding of my profession or how any airline employee works or how they're compensated. Go back and actually read some of the many threads that have been posted on this forum about this topic and then you can come back and debate. Otherwise, you're wasting everyone's time.
I just cannot feel sorry for the group. It has been a good ride but take a look at the world around and notice that the equiv of 288-299k is pretty unrealistic. No, UALdriver...no envy...more like abhorance. How can you not get it?
I don't get it? I'm the one working as a pilot at a major airline. I understand how it all "works." You're on the outside looking in, making wild a$$ remarks about an industry and compensation levels that you don't even understand.
Ch12, if you feel like you need to discuss pilot salaries further, just so we can understand where you're coming from, could you please in you next diatribe about pilot compensation please list your profession and give us the numbers you filed with the IRS from line 36 of your 2002-2004 1040's? I figure that since you feel free to judge another profession's salary, we all should get to determine if your level of compensation is appropriate for your work. I just want to look at it while using a little "business sense."
World, I think the point that DLflyer was trying to make is that one can't look at a pilot's schedule (or flight attendant's for that matter) working 75 hours a month and make a direct correlation to a typical hourly worker working 40 hours per week, and then go and imply that airline flight crew don't work "full time." Obviously we don't calculate weight and balance in the cockpit (nor should we) on large transport category aircraft. But there are many, many hours we sit in the cockpit or in the cabin and are simply not paid our hourly rate.
There was a large group of DALPA pilots that retired early en masse for fear of losing their lump sum pension benefit and/or their unhappiness with their anticipated post bankruptcy pay/work rules. DALPA wasn't trying to convince them to stay away from work. In fact, DALPA worked with the company in order to come up with a solution to the problem created by this mass exodus. Obviously, this ticks off some of the junior guys in DAL's seniority based pilot system, but had DALPA not reached an agreement with the company, there would have been a lot of empty widebody cockpits just when DAL is depending on those aircraft the most. Not to mention the huge spike in pilot training costs and lost pilot productivity DAL would have had to endure during this very inconvienent time.
lynyrdskynyrd
Veteran
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2005
- Messages
- 1,182
- Reaction score
- 558
Yes CH.12, please share with us just what it is you do and what your compenstation is. Then we pilots on this board can analyze it and judge just what you are worth. It does not matter if we understand what you do or not, we reserve the right to be judge and jury and decide just how over paid you are.
Don't worry if we don't understand your profession, we'll just do as you do and pretend that we do actually understand and make judgements accordingly.
Don't worry if we don't understand your profession, we'll just do as you do and pretend that we do actually understand and make judgements accordingly.
Chapt 12, in my years posting on this board, I can honestly say I have never seen another string of posts by anyone else that is even close to being as arrogantly ignorant as your's in this string. What part of flight hours do you not understand? If a surgeon's pay was based purely on time in the OR, would you say he was only working 10 hours a week due purely to the OR schedule? Or would you understand there is prep time? Since no one else will bite, I will. Here is a no kidding pilot schedule at a major airline. You tell me how many hours the pilot was at work, and how many he should be paid for. I have removed the city pairs and changed the times slightly to protect "privacy"
This "DSL" leaves on Dec 22 and returns home on the 26th (IOW, the pilot is away from his family so you can be with your's.....). This is a 5 day trip
Departs XXX at approx 8 pm.
Arrives YYY at approx 10:15 pm (9:15 XXX time)
Layover for 31 hours at YYY (pilot would prefer flying after reasonable crewrest, but company needs "flexibility")
departs YYY on the 24th at approx 6 AM
Arrives at ZZZ at 2 hours later. at ZZZ for 1.5 hours (not on the clock, merely preflighting the jet and performing "customer service"....) Departs ZZZ at 930 AM and arrives at GGG at approx 1115 am. Company needs that "flexibility" so pilot laysover in GGG for 27 hours.
Pilot departs GGG at approx 2 15 pm, arrive in ZZZ at 4 pm. Lays over for 17 hours. BTW, it's Christmas, he's on the way to another hotel as you're watching the video you took that morning of the kids opening presents. Departs ZZZ at approx 8 am on the 26th. Arrives back at XXX at around 9:00 AM. If he could afford to plunk down the $1 mill a 3000 sqft home on 1/5th an acre in XXX costs, he could be back home by around 11:00 AM. Since he can't, he'll be commuting home on one of the busiest travel days of the year. Maybe he'll get a jumpseat, if not, he'll go back to the "crashpad" he shares with 10 other employees at a monthly cost of $300.
Now let's review. He was gone for 5 days. From brake release on day one to brakes set on day 5, 86 hours went by. His time that he will actually get paid for? approx 8 hours of flight time. That is REALITY. Now you do the math. Lets assume the 55 YO Capt makes 170 an hour. What did HE make for spending an entire WORK WEEK on the job, away from home? Now how about the 50 YO F/O making 90 an hour? Under $600? For a college educated (possibly AFA or USNA, check the entry qualifications and compare to YOUR'S) professional pilot with 30 F'n years of experience. Under 600 F'N DOLLARS FOR FIVE DAYS OF WORK.
This is NOT hypothetical, this is REAL, and unfortunately in this case, the Capt only makes $130 and hour and the F/O $75.
Quibble all you want about "economic realities" or "finance", but do us all a favor and spare us the uninformed babble that even suggests the concept of "underworked and overpaid" or that "real people work more/ harder". I've been on BOTH sides. You have not, and you are speaking of things you have no clue about. Better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it......
Rant over.
This "DSL" leaves on Dec 22 and returns home on the 26th (IOW, the pilot is away from his family so you can be with your's.....). This is a 5 day trip
Departs XXX at approx 8 pm.
Arrives YYY at approx 10:15 pm (9:15 XXX time)
Layover for 31 hours at YYY (pilot would prefer flying after reasonable crewrest, but company needs "flexibility")
departs YYY on the 24th at approx 6 AM
Arrives at ZZZ at 2 hours later. at ZZZ for 1.5 hours (not on the clock, merely preflighting the jet and performing "customer service"....) Departs ZZZ at 930 AM and arrives at GGG at approx 1115 am. Company needs that "flexibility" so pilot laysover in GGG for 27 hours.
Pilot departs GGG at approx 2 15 pm, arrive in ZZZ at 4 pm. Lays over for 17 hours. BTW, it's Christmas, he's on the way to another hotel as you're watching the video you took that morning of the kids opening presents. Departs ZZZ at approx 8 am on the 26th. Arrives back at XXX at around 9:00 AM. If he could afford to plunk down the $1 mill a 3000 sqft home on 1/5th an acre in XXX costs, he could be back home by around 11:00 AM. Since he can't, he'll be commuting home on one of the busiest travel days of the year. Maybe he'll get a jumpseat, if not, he'll go back to the "crashpad" he shares with 10 other employees at a monthly cost of $300.
Now let's review. He was gone for 5 days. From brake release on day one to brakes set on day 5, 86 hours went by. His time that he will actually get paid for? approx 8 hours of flight time. That is REALITY. Now you do the math. Lets assume the 55 YO Capt makes 170 an hour. What did HE make for spending an entire WORK WEEK on the job, away from home? Now how about the 50 YO F/O making 90 an hour? Under $600? For a college educated (possibly AFA or USNA, check the entry qualifications and compare to YOUR'S) professional pilot with 30 F'n years of experience. Under 600 F'N DOLLARS FOR FIVE DAYS OF WORK.
This is NOT hypothetical, this is REAL, and unfortunately in this case, the Capt only makes $130 and hour and the F/O $75.
Quibble all you want about "economic realities" or "finance", but do us all a favor and spare us the uninformed babble that even suggests the concept of "underworked and overpaid" or that "real people work more/ harder". I've been on BOTH sides. You have not, and you are speaking of things you have no clue about. Better to be quiet and thought a fool than to open your mouth and prove it......
Rant over.
NewHampshire Black Bears
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2002
- Messages
- 10,153
- Reaction score
- 681
========================================================
FLY,
Save your breath. The "dynamic duo" believe EVERYTHING that was taught to them , in business school "IS GOSPEL" !
IF(and I realize IF is a BIG word), but "IF" Dalpa "takes a hike", there are gonna' be a TON of STUNNED "mammyjammers"
NH/BB's
luv2fly
Veteran
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2002
- Messages
- 1,187
- Reaction score
- 0
========================================================
FLY,
Save your breath. The "dynamic duo" believe EVERYTHING that was taught to them , in business school "IS GOSPEL" !
IF(and I realize IF is a BIG word), but "IF" Dalpa "takes a hike", there are gonna' be a TON of STUNNED "mammyjammers"
NH/BB's
To add to that NHBB, the mentality of the dynamic duo is exactly what has helped destroy the airline industry. Alot of ignorant people running their mouths, who haven't clue as to what they are talking about.
Truth hurts all of you, doesn't it? I am in mgmt (oh gosh! he said "mgmt!"), am NOT a manager, work 200-240 hours a month (50-60 hrs per week), could make that figure upwards of 500 per month if I, too, add my commute time, time between the hours that I work when I wish I could work again rather than waiting for my next workday, or add my time spent on biz trips, etc. Oh...and I make less than 1/3 of the avg quoted here. And don't give me that "I paid for flight hours" BS b/c I paid for education. I make far less (and I'm not envious of you b/c I realize that if I made an extreme amount it would just not make economic sense in a troubled industry) and work far more. I don't care if you are away from home...you signed up for it. I used to consult and was always away from home...working...not laying over. Did not consider myself gipped by the man b/c I was away from home...I signed up for it. I also did not really consider my time in the hotels as "work time" as you all do but I DID actually work during this time as you all don't.
UAL- You never broke down the $1B. Try again. Your "35% paycut" that your buddy took still left his profession averaging 170k. OK...let's use the more conservative 135-140k. Still pretty good b/c it ain't a full schedule.
Let's see...
--8-10:15+1.5 hrs preflight=3.75
--6-11:15 (includes time btwn flights)+1 hr preflt=6.25
--2:15-4pm +1.5 hrs=3.25
--8-9am +1.5 hrs=2.5
--overall timespan:5 days or typical professional WORKS 40+ hours. You have WORKED 15.75. Again...no sympathy for layovers, etc, b/c it is the chosen profession and I simply cannot count that as work time (nor will I give brownie points for holidays. I used to be a firefighter and every christmas morning I could count on being called out to a fire...never spend a real christmas with my family during that time).
So you all can blast me all that you want but my track record here should show you that I know plenty about the industry (b/c I am in it...nice try). It is an utterly time-wasting method of debating if your only approach is to try to defame the debators. This is the political way of late and I think it's ridiculous. I don't defame you and don't think that you aren't doing an admirable job in your profession...b/c I do think it is a very admirable profession. I do, however, see that the industry is not in its regulated heyday anymore and cannot sustain to pay top dollar for a profession. You all are right...mgmt is also to blame...17 hour layovers should not happen if you are still within the confines of the regs and that is a truly inefficient way to schedule. But I cannot feel sorry for a group that has earned way above what the market can handle. Don't you see that there has to be some adjustment? Granted...I would like to see the execs stand up and say "we'll work for $1 until we are out of the woods" but I'd also like to see pilots understand that the good days ended long ago...perhaps the heyday salaries should as well.
UAL- You never broke down the $1B. Try again. Your "35% paycut" that your buddy took still left his profession averaging 170k. OK...let's use the more conservative 135-140k. Still pretty good b/c it ain't a full schedule.
Let's see...
--8-10:15+1.5 hrs preflight=3.75
--6-11:15 (includes time btwn flights)+1 hr preflt=6.25
--2:15-4pm +1.5 hrs=3.25
--8-9am +1.5 hrs=2.5
--overall timespan:5 days or typical professional WORKS 40+ hours. You have WORKED 15.75. Again...no sympathy for layovers, etc, b/c it is the chosen profession and I simply cannot count that as work time (nor will I give brownie points for holidays. I used to be a firefighter and every christmas morning I could count on being called out to a fire...never spend a real christmas with my family during that time).
So you all can blast me all that you want but my track record here should show you that I know plenty about the industry (b/c I am in it...nice try). It is an utterly time-wasting method of debating if your only approach is to try to defame the debators. This is the political way of late and I think it's ridiculous. I don't defame you and don't think that you aren't doing an admirable job in your profession...b/c I do think it is a very admirable profession. I do, however, see that the industry is not in its regulated heyday anymore and cannot sustain to pay top dollar for a profession. You all are right...mgmt is also to blame...17 hour layovers should not happen if you are still within the confines of the regs and that is a truly inefficient way to schedule. But I cannot feel sorry for a group that has earned way above what the market can handle. Don't you see that there has to be some adjustment? Granted...I would like to see the execs stand up and say "we'll work for $1 until we are out of the woods" but I'd also like to see pilots understand that the good days ended long ago...perhaps the heyday salaries should as well.
There is NO NEED to blast you. You stupid posts take care of that all by itself.
You are correct, this is the profession these people chose, and that included the PAY. Now the company wants people to work more hours away from home for less pay....so of course they aren't going to be happy about it. You are the most jealous man I've read on here in a loooooong time.
fyi - the pilots (and flight attendants for that matter) have NO say in how the trips are built. The big concern is days when we can be home, that's what we concern ourselves with. The point YOU miss is that although we totally enjoy the job, it is tough when a scheduled trip is worth so few hours. I'm doing a trip to GRU this month that has me leaving for 4 days. Guess how many hours it pays? 19! So you can spew your uneducated perceptions all you like, but I couldn't physically work 40 hours a week (or 50 or 60, etc) because the airline builds the trips like above and I only can make 19 hours for 4 days.
You are correct, this is the profession these people chose, and that included the PAY. Now the company wants people to work more hours away from home for less pay....so of course they aren't going to be happy about it. You are the most jealous man I've read on here in a loooooong time.
fyi - the pilots (and flight attendants for that matter) have NO say in how the trips are built. The big concern is days when we can be home, that's what we concern ourselves with. The point YOU miss is that although we totally enjoy the job, it is tough when a scheduled trip is worth so few hours. I'm doing a trip to GRU this month that has me leaving for 4 days. Guess how many hours it pays? 19! So you can spew your uneducated perceptions all you like, but I couldn't physically work 40 hours a week (or 50 or 60, etc) because the airline builds the trips like above and I only can make 19 hours for 4 days.
MatthewAMEL
Newbie
Well, enough lurking... 😛h34r:
I took up airline flying as my 2nd career (after 10 years working a 9-5 M-F office job).
I took the job because of all the perceptions I had about the glorious life of an airline pilot. "Living the dream!"
I laugh now at those stories and people like Ch12 who are obviously jealous of the perceived life the line pilot leads.
My 1st year on the line I made $20K for 977 flight hours. Lots of 5am shows, lots of nights away from home. Due to being so junior in my base, I had 11 days a month off.
My 2nd year, it was $35K for 960 flight hours. Again, still pretty junior so my schedule was early shows or late nights. Was able to hold 12-13 days off.
Do I often feel overworked and underpaid, you bet. Would I go back to my office job (which BTW paid more money), never! People like Ch12 are stuck in their cubicles for whatever reason: no aptitude for the job, can't hold a medical, chronic case of "what if'itis", who knows.
The problem with the airlines is not how much the pilots are paid...please don't think anyone with less than a High School Diploma would by that argument. As I recall, DALPA did a study in 2001 that said the pilot group could fly for FREE and Delta would still lose money.
Pilot expense is only a small part of the cost per mile,a business is NEVER going to make money if you don't charge enough to cover your costs...end of story.
Until Delta Mgmt., starts charging each passenger what it costs to fly, they are going to lose money.
Some folks seem to have issue with paying airline pilots like a doctor. Well, consider this. If a 757 CA and FO are flying from LGA to MCO they have 199 people in the back depending on them to do their job. That highly paid brain surgeon has one person's welfare at stake.
I took up airline flying as my 2nd career (after 10 years working a 9-5 M-F office job).
I took the job because of all the perceptions I had about the glorious life of an airline pilot. "Living the dream!"
I laugh now at those stories and people like Ch12 who are obviously jealous of the perceived life the line pilot leads.
My 1st year on the line I made $20K for 977 flight hours. Lots of 5am shows, lots of nights away from home. Due to being so junior in my base, I had 11 days a month off.
My 2nd year, it was $35K for 960 flight hours. Again, still pretty junior so my schedule was early shows or late nights. Was able to hold 12-13 days off.
Do I often feel overworked and underpaid, you bet. Would I go back to my office job (which BTW paid more money), never! People like Ch12 are stuck in their cubicles for whatever reason: no aptitude for the job, can't hold a medical, chronic case of "what if'itis", who knows.
The problem with the airlines is not how much the pilots are paid...please don't think anyone with less than a High School Diploma would by that argument. As I recall, DALPA did a study in 2001 that said the pilot group could fly for FREE and Delta would still lose money.
Pilot expense is only a small part of the cost per mile,a business is NEVER going to make money if you don't charge enough to cover your costs...end of story.
Until Delta Mgmt., starts charging each passenger what it costs to fly, they are going to lose money.
Some folks seem to have issue with paying airline pilots like a doctor. Well, consider this. If a 757 CA and FO are flying from LGA to MCO they have 199 people in the back depending on them to do their job. That highly paid brain surgeon has one person's welfare at stake.
Funny thing is that I try to have a factual, intelligent debate and all that you can resort to is emotions. Get over yourself and get over your ego. How many times have I said that I don't have envy of your salary. Perhaps your ego gets in the way of your ears. I said that it would be stupid to be responsible for adding so much weigh to the ship when it is sinking. But your ego doesn't care who drowns...as long as you horded what you could in the meantime. I do particularly like your comment to Mr. Fish in another thread that there is no way a FO would hang out with a mech. Talk about classless. Now I can see the big picture...thanks.
Now...back to the discussion. I DO agree that the trips aren't built well. But why don't you use this wonderful BK time when you have a judge that can help to streamline operations? Instead...all the time is wasted on focusing only on not giving up a penny while EVERYONE else did!! And I know, I know...you gave before...but so did EVERYONE else. And even with giving...you are still well above what a relevant position in another industry would make. I TOTALLY agree that salary/benes should not be the only discussion point and also greatly fault your mgmt for not working to create a more economical schedule (hotels aren't free). You also have to be careful what you wish for b/c if they scheduled you tighter, they wouldn't need as many pilots (which again...is maybe the economical decision).
So can we please check the emotions and egos at the door and discuss this like we've actually graduated from kindergarten?
I am bright enough to know that cost is only 1/2 of the equation. I'm also bright enough to understand how elastic the demand for air travel is and that there simply is no power in pricing. There is too much capacity and there are too many options (such as the car) that you cannot raise fares as simply as we all would like. Delta cannot solve this alone. The only way to fix this issue is for all of the airlines to collude (illegal) and for a couple of majors to volunteer to shut down (illogical). Outside of that...you just can't say "gee...I'm going to make the customer pay what I need to make a profit today". If that were the case and economic forces were not a factor in this world, there would be no unprofitable companies. That isn't the case.
And trust me...I have no perception that the pilot's life is glorious nor have I ever stated such.
Oh...and one last thing...that is an insult to state that just b/c you have a plane full of people behind you that you are equivalent to (or from what I read of your post...better than) a doctor. A busdriver carries more pax in a day than you do. A taxidriver does as well. Should we be thankful that they are so nice as to not drive off a cliff and kill us just b/c their salary is low? Oh thank you for not deliberately crashing a plane b/c you don't get paid enough! Give me a friggen break.
OK...again...bye bye egos. I welcome any intelligent thought into the economical situation of the industry.
Now...back to the discussion. I DO agree that the trips aren't built well. But why don't you use this wonderful BK time when you have a judge that can help to streamline operations? Instead...all the time is wasted on focusing only on not giving up a penny while EVERYONE else did!! And I know, I know...you gave before...but so did EVERYONE else. And even with giving...you are still well above what a relevant position in another industry would make. I TOTALLY agree that salary/benes should not be the only discussion point and also greatly fault your mgmt for not working to create a more economical schedule (hotels aren't free). You also have to be careful what you wish for b/c if they scheduled you tighter, they wouldn't need as many pilots (which again...is maybe the economical decision).
So can we please check the emotions and egos at the door and discuss this like we've actually graduated from kindergarten?
Ego #2 has just checked in. Do you actually think I want to be a pilot? Sorry to burst your bubble. If anything...it sounds like you and Fly are the envious ones if being on the road is such a nightmare.
I am bright enough to know that cost is only 1/2 of the equation. I'm also bright enough to understand how elastic the demand for air travel is and that there simply is no power in pricing. There is too much capacity and there are too many options (such as the car) that you cannot raise fares as simply as we all would like. Delta cannot solve this alone. The only way to fix this issue is for all of the airlines to collude (illegal) and for a couple of majors to volunteer to shut down (illogical). Outside of that...you just can't say "gee...I'm going to make the customer pay what I need to make a profit today". If that were the case and economic forces were not a factor in this world, there would be no unprofitable companies. That isn't the case.
And trust me...I have no perception that the pilot's life is glorious nor have I ever stated such.
Oh...and one last thing...that is an insult to state that just b/c you have a plane full of people behind you that you are equivalent to (or from what I read of your post...better than) a doctor. A busdriver carries more pax in a day than you do. A taxidriver does as well. Should we be thankful that they are so nice as to not drive off a cliff and kill us just b/c their salary is low? Oh thank you for not deliberately crashing a plane b/c you don't get paid enough! Give me a friggen break.
OK...again...bye bye egos. I welcome any intelligent thought into the economical situation of the industry.
Does anyone else here wonder how small someone's life must be to join ( and PAY ) for a membership to a message board about a field they are not even in? As if I'm going to sign up for a membership to CubicleLife.com 😛
Oh, forgot to tell you. I'm not a pilot.
Oh, forgot to tell you. I'm not a pilot.
Yes, yes...another diversion attempt. Let's get facts straight since you cannot:
1) I am in the industry, nitwit. Read my posts and piece it together. Don't ruin what little credibility that you have by letting your arse speak for you. What do you want? My home address so that you can throw a horse's head through my window? I guess then that you are not in the industry? If it is as simple as just stating that, then it MUST be true 🙄
2) I don't PAY. Guess you got the short end of the stick if you are paying for this. Ha!
3) Can you point out any post here that has brought value? You only try to defame people's character b/c you cannot come up with a case. I mention economics, costs, revenues, that mgmt is just as at fault as anyone else, etc. In other words...I am objective and think through the issue. It is an insult to the rest of us on these boards when all that you can contribute is "your momma" arguments. Get educated and then come back. I would love to have a debate full of intelligence and rationalization rather than a schoolyard egotrip with no substance.
