Exec: Delta Unprepared for Pilots' Strike (AP)

[michael707767]

[/quote] A busdriver carries more pax in a day than you do. A taxidriver does as well.
[/quote]


Is a bus driver a valuable position responsible for lives? Yes. The difference though, is when a bus breaks down the bus driver pulls over to the side of the road. Thats not an option in an airplane once you take off.

Plus according to this article:
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/urban/...s/taxi/n_20286/

the average yearly pay of a New York City cab driver is about 43,000 with a high end of 74,000. Thats more than the FO at any regional airline, and more than a lot of regional captains and some FOs are majors.

Now, do you really think a pilot is over paid when even cab drivers make more than some pilots?

 

[Busdrvr]

A busdriver carries more pax in a day than you do. A taxidriver does as well.
Is a bus driver a valuable position responsible for lives? Yes. The difference though, is when a bus breaks down the bus driver pulls over to the side of the road. Thats not an option in an airplane once you take off.

Plus according to this article:
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/urban/...s/taxi/n_20286/

the average yearly pay of a New York City cab driver is about 43,000 with a high end of 74,000. Thats more than the FO at any regional airline, and more than a lot of regional captains and some FOs are majors.

Now, do you really think a pilot is over paid when even cab drivers make more than some pilots?

Sounds a lot like NYC based Jblu's E190 Capt and F/O pay....

 

[Ch. 12]

A busdriver carries more pax in a day than you do. A taxidriver does as well.
Is a bus driver a valuable position responsible for lives? Yes. The difference though, is when a bus breaks down the bus driver pulls over to the side of the road. Thats not an option in an airplane once you take off.

Plus according to this article:
http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/urban/...s/taxi/n_20286/

the average yearly pay of a New York City cab driver is about 43,000 with a high end of 74,000. Thats more than the FO at any regional airline, and more than a lot of regional captains and some FOs are majors.

Now, do you really think a pilot is over paid when even cab drivers make more than some pilots?

So first can we agree that I am looking at this as an economic issue and that the industry is nose-diving due to external forces? Who cares what Cleopatra brings in each week...we are talking the AIRLINE industry.

BUT...looking at your taxi driver vs. pilot comparison, if you want to compare apples to apples (b/c I do)...here is a link of gov't data for NYC-based workers and the mean salaries:http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_5600.htm#b53-0000

Notice that NYC-based pilots AVERAGE 175k while the cab drivers AVERAGE under 32k. Even if this article you link to is accurate (though it seems to be a reporter's interpretation of what rate hikes will bring to the cabbie's pocket and not an all-things-considered real number figure...you know...good journalism meant to drum up emotion on how the rate hikes are making people rich...just like they report every time airfares go up by $2), that would still leave cabbies making 104k less than the pilots. Fine with me until you understand that a cabbie in NYC must also purchase a "taxi medallion" (currently going for 260-350k) to operate AND they must pay for and maintain licensing (not paid for by employer) AND many have to pay for their insurance (also not paid for by employer). So that 74k figure looks much smaller now when you understand that a taxi driver is much more like a sole proprietorship (even when working for a taxi line) than just a job.

Again...let's not make this into a "who is overpaid compared to who". Let's look at this as a "the industry is sucking wind and what is sustainable". Current rates are not sustainable...not at DL.

 

[WorldTraveler]

isn't it fun that the DL board has moved to be one of the most active on USAviation now? And Fly will now be very interested to note that the majority of my postings are now on the DL board. Check in often for mind challenging conversation!

A couple of corrective comments -
physician salaries have not even kept pace with inflation in many disciplines for several reasons including an increased use of managed health care by both government and private insurance; because of increased litigation and the need for higher insurance premiums; and the increase in the number of non-physician alternatives to health care delivery such as nurse practitioners, midwives, etc. All of those factors have suppressed the wages physicians are getting which is also why medicine is no longer one of the most sought after professions - as it was in the past. And all of the factors that are suppressing physician salaries can be seen to have parallels in the aviation industry. Pilot salaries, just like those in medicine, are driven by the market and will not likely begin to rebound for at least 5 years or more.

I also do not agree that legacy airlines have been blameless in their downfall. Legacy airlines throughout the 90s tried to stubbornly hold onto their old way of doing business with high business fares. Now bankruptcy NW torpedoed AA's attempts to simply pricing long before Simplifares came along; and the chorus of dissent cranked up right on tune in January when DL implemented SF even though just about every airline since then has acknowledged that SF has not done near as much damage as they expected and maybe even some good. Put simply, airlines have used faulty revenue projection models for decades and in so doing have been in a no-win contest w/ consumers.

Second, legacy airlines have failed to deliver what consumers want which has been shown by the LCCs to be reasonably priced, value driven, reliable transportation. While the airlines cannot be blamed for everything in the reliable category since the gov't essentially controls airspace and airport capacity , airlines do bear responsibility for pricing and value. While consumers are not as hostile to the airlines regarding price as they once were, they continue to vote w/ their feet in moving their business to low cost carriers because they are now the ones that offer more perceived value.

Third, airlines attempts to reduce distribution costs through travel agent commission cuts largely backfired by causing an increase in web traffic. Air travel is now one of the largest components of online shopping and the legacy airlines are subjected to almost complete price transparency of their offerings because of their presence in selling through so many challenges and the disparities in fare structures that provide an opening for powerful computers to look for the lowest prices.

Labor had nothing to do with any of these trends but they are paying for the legacy industry's collective unwillingness to move away from the deregulated mindness to a market driven era.

Nonetheless, airline labor has been higher compensated than comparable jobs in other industries in large part again to labor's refusal to recognize that the era of deregulation is over for labor just as it is for management. Holding a gun to management's head cannot succeed in keeping labor rates up and that is how airline labor has worked for decades. Asserting that pilots should shut DL down if they can't get what they want is proof the destructive, antiquated mindset is still alive. Killing a business only provides a door for more efficient producers to grow; I can assure you that the carriers that replace DL would pay their pilots nowhere close to what DL is offering to pay its pilots even under the proposed contract.

Employees that have secured a viable future for themselves at any company have done so by embracing with management a common vision of what needs to happen and working with management to the benefit of all stakeholders - management, customers, and employees. DL pilots' continued refusal to recognize where the industry is headed and work w/ management to ensure everyone's success will only result in further shrinkage of Delta leaving AirTran and JetBlue free to expand as they desire.

 

[Busdrvr]

Now, now, Bus...you know full well that I NEVER said that you should not have been paid well before the collapse.


OK, thanks for clearing it up for me. I didn't realie you were merely making an "economic argument" when you said...


So...if I were to look at the numbers...even if it is 135-140k...at 75 hours a month, the pilots essentially make the equivalent of 288k-299k per year (if I were to pro-rate the salaries up to a 160 hour month which is the MINIMUM that most other professionals work.) I just cannot feel sorry for the group. It has been a good ride but take a look at the world around and notice that the equiv of 288-299k is pretty unrealistic. No, UALdriver...no envy...more like abhorance.

On the issue of Us vs cabbies:
1. your data is a year old
2. NYC is where we commute TO. The number would undoubtedly be significantly lower if all those who flew trips into and out of NYC were included. Most pilots didn't just arrive from other countries to share a NYC apt with 12 other imigrants.

On Pilots vs Drs.:
1. Yeah, all Dr's save lives every day. I just saw a life saving "Boob Job" on Dr 90210, and I'm sure emergency bunion removals save millions per year. My Dr works WAY less hours a day than I did as an airline pilot.

 

[Ch. 12]

Bus-
On my "abhorance": Yes...in context, it is ridiculous to have those wages at the most extreme downturn in this industry. Also in context I said that I supported higher wages in better times. Still cannot support them now, though...and my abhorance comes from the fact that every other group realizes the economic realites and have faced adjustments. To ignore the realities comes off as greed, sorry. You aren't involved in this issue directly so you cannot speak on it. The solidarity in situations like this needs to lie within the company amongst the various workgroups...not with a brethren of brothers across all carriers each facing different scenarios. There is so much US and UA venom out there that everyone seems so happy to try to spread.

On the issue of Us vs cabbies:
1. your data is a year old
2. NYC is where we commute TO. The number would undoubtedly be significantly lower if all those who flew trips into and out of NYC were included. Most pilots didn't just arrive from other countries to share a NYC apt with 12 other imigrants.

The salary was last year and I TOLD you that I would take your higher figure of 74k. Either way...if you are comparing cabbies that face the NYC cost of living, we must look at pilots facing the same costs. If you live in ATL or CVG, your costs are FAR less. Of course you live in neither b/c once again...you aren't with DL. Either way...you fail to acknowledge the high costs that NYC cabbies are charged with. If we use little snippets out of context, we can make a case on anything. I cannot control you not citing my whole outlay of facts but I won't keep debating something if you choose to ignore 3/4 of what is written just to make your case.

On Pilots vs Drs.:
1. Yeah, all Dr's save lives every day. I just saw a life saving "Boob Job" on Dr 90210, and I'm sure emergency bunion removals save millions per year. My Dr works WAY less hours a day than I did as an airline pilot.

Of course they all don't save lives. Your boob job doc is the equivalent to an attorney that chases ambulances and doesn't adequately depict the profession. I could point out the bad of any occupation but that doesn't make it the rule. My point, as you so obtusely pretend to just not get, is that you do not save lives. You perform a technical function. If anybody saves lives on an airplane, I would say it's the engineers that design the safety systems and the mechanics that keep the equipment functioning. THEN I would say the F/As b/c they actually do face issues like cardiac arrest. You are operating a big bird making sure you've got enough lift to keep 'er in the air. I am sorry but having REAL doctors in my family...I am disgusted by this perverse assimilation that screams ego and has absolutely no merit. Thankfully, I know that it isn't the majority of pilots that think they are the same as doctors. Ego check, please.

 

[savyinvestor]

I really don't have a dog in this fight,however, doctors can be sued and pay astronomical premiums for malpractice insurance that comes out of their income. Pilot error on the other hand that causes death or injury to passengers leaves the pilot with no individual liability to the best of my knowledge. This should be taken into account when looking at incomes. I'm not taking sides, but this needs to be considered. Also, all I keep hearing is that it is safer to fly than to drive. That would make the cabbie or bus driver a riskier occupation .Same for the passengers. Savy

 

[767jetz]

you do not save lives. You perform a technical function. I am sorry but having REAL doctors in my family...I am disgusted by this perverse assimilation that screams ego and has absolutely no merit. Ego check, please.

I can't speak for others, but I never claimed that pilots "save lives" the same way some doctors do. We are responsible for many lives however. Many more than most professions. And any miscalculation or inattentiveness on our part could have disastrous results. Therefore we do not simply perform a technical function, as you so ridiculously assert. Aside from this "technical function" there are vast amounts of judgment, talent, instinct, 3 dimensional situational awareness, and expertise that go along with the stick and rudder skills. And these talents take a long time to hone and polish, beyond the degrees and training. Much like doctors. As doctors intern after med school, pilots go through years of experience much like an intern to reach the cockpit of an airline. Then there are the many who voluntarily become armed Federal Officers and accept the added responsibility that goes with the authorization to use deadly force. And we haven't even touched on the many examples of what happens when the #### hits the fan and things go wrong. (Flight 232 in Sioux City comes to mind) In these situations the pilots most certainly do save lives.

No, pilots do not save lives on a day to day basis like a doctor might. We protect the lives of the traveling public and deliver them safely to their destinations. And if we are faced with potential disaster, it is then our expertise, professionalism, and experience that saves lives. While we are not doctors, our professions follow similar paths of education, training, internship, experience, continuing education and certification, and ultimate responsibility. It is in these areas that we draw comparison.

If you care to open your mind you might be able draw some of these parallels yourself and get beyond your "saving lives" analogy. Perhaps it's time to check your arrogance and ego, please.

 

[Busdrvr]

I really don't have a dog in this fight,however, doctors can be sued and pay astronomical premiums for malpractice insurance that comes out of their income. Pilot error on the other hand that causes death or injury to passengers leaves the pilot with no individual liability to the best of my knowledge. This should be taken into account when looking at incomes. I'm not taking sides, but this needs to be considered. Also, all I keep hearing is that it is safer to fly than to drive. That would make the cabbie or bus driver a riskier occupation .Same for the passengers. Savy

No, pilot "malpractice" just leaves him DEAD. I'd rather pay for the lawsuit..... Flying is safer than driving BECAUSE OF PROFESSIONAL PILOTS. Driving a simply machine at 60 MPH on the 2 dimensional earth is inherently safer than flying a highly complex machine at 600 MPH in 3D aerospace.

 

[MMB]

... We are responsible for many lives however. Many more than most professions. ... We protect the lives of the traveling public and deliver them safely to their destinations. ...


The lives of thousands of people, including yours, indeed do rest in the hands of a very few on a daily basis. A few like the mechanics who spent the night making sure the plane was safe to fly, the load planners who keep your CG where it should be, the fuelers who got the correct fuel in the tanks, the ground controllers who made a safe path for you from the gate to the runway, ATC who made sure your route was clear and you are on it, and the F/As who not only have to put up with more *stuff* than anyone should be asked to endure, they have to be instantly ready for all sorts of personal, medical, and in-flight emergencies. With world situations the way they are now, we can’t forget the gate agents, security agents, and air marshals who keep the nut cases off the planes.

As for that pitch about the flight crew being responsible for the lives of the passengers; that makes good fare for old Hollywood movies, but your job is to stay safely forward of that new bust proof locked door and drive the buss. In an emergency a pilot has no more thought for the passengers than the kid on the ground watching the plane take off. You watch out for your own backside, all those “lives in the backâ€￾ are just along for the ride. I’ll believe otherwise when I hear the last words from a voice recorder taken at a crash site saying, “Hey wait, this is a ferry flight! There isn’t anyone in the back! You know, I’ve never seen a crash up close and personal. What do you say we just ride this one in?â€￾

MB

 

[Bear96]

Doctors bury their mistakes.

Pilots are buried with theirs.

 

[767jetz]

Hew “newbie†(aka. ,MMB)

I see you just registered in the wee hours of the morning to post that crap. For your very first post on this forum, you sure did come out swinging. Hmmmm… Wouldn’t happen to be CH.12 posting under a different identity, would you??? To say pilots are not concerned with lives is absolute ignorance.

While I do agree that there are many other people involved in the complex process of moving a huge piece of aluminum filled with fuel, people, and cargo from point A to point B, and that they all play a role in the safety of the passengers to one degree or another, it is the pilots who are the final decision makers and shoulder the most responsibility. This is not just in practice but by law. If the CG is off, or the fuel load inaccurate, or the routing is not safe, etc. etc., and the pilot does not catch the error, it is he who is responsible. Hence the saying, “if anyone screws up, it’s the captains fault.†Pilots oversee the entire operation and must have knowledge and understanding of each and every step in the process. Not so for other people. Simple fact: Pilots have training, experience, and understanding of everyone else’s job. (metrology, flight planning, weight & balance, ATC, maintenance, engineering, evacuation, fire fighting, security, and on and on…) Other’s are specifically trained for their field.

You are certainly entitled to have your opinion. Like a certain part of the anatomy, every one’s got one. But before you spout off as some expert, perhaps you should read the whole thread and understand the gist of people’s points. I was trying to open the eyes of a person who claims that all pilots do is perform a “technical function.â€

And by the way, even ferry flights can kill people on the ground! Perhaps you are not familiar with the crash of Concorde. As they were headed for a large hotel filled with people, in the last seconds of their doomed flight, they veered away to spare whatever lives possible. They were credited with saving the lives of everyone in that hotel. After the crash of flight 232 in a corn field in Iowa, the first thing the captain was concerned with was how many people survived. He was quoted later as saying that he knew if he brought the jet down anywhere on a airport he could save as many lives as possible.

Now, please go crawl back under your rock.

 

[autofixer]

These posts ALL look very simular to those posted on the US Airways boards years ago. Same lame arguments about overpaid pilots. Guess what? You are all going to take it in the shorts. If pilots are paid alot, rampers are paid alot. If pilots are paid like bus drivers (a la US Airways today), rampers are paid very little and are replaced by people off the street. You only have to look at US Airways to see the templet. Bye-bye retirement, bye-bye scope, pay, working conditions, etc. Save you class envey drivel, we have heard it all before. It is moot, the judge will give the company whatever they need.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Save your class envy drivel, we have heard it all before. It is moot, the judge will give the company whatever they need.

Nothing like hearing it from the voice of experience.

 

[luv2fly]

Save you class envey drivel, we have heard it all before. It is moot, the judge will give the company whatever they need.

Yep, you would know. You guys gave it up voluntarily. Nice job BTW.