Callsign_Cactus
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You should feel like a complete idiot after your first statement. Does the word hypocrite ring a bell.
Flt 1752 almost collides with RJ
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A320 Driver
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Where in the hell does that controller get off telling the crew that "I gave you taxi instructions" after they asked for a clarification regarding the 9L crossing clearance? That crew made a mistake, but it could have been avoided if the controller had not been such a smart a$$.
I asked PHX approach control a few weeks ago what the landing runway was since he didn't give it to me on first contact. He said, VERY sarcastically, "Its on the ATIS". Well, the ATIS said they were landing two different runways and this SOB was too good to tell me which one was for me.
We better start getting a little more cooperation around here folks or this could get very messy.
A320 Driver
Measuring number of fatalities, yes. The Tenerife accident continues to hold that record (583 people on board the two 747's perished). Until an A380 loaded with that many, or more, passengers goes down, it probably will remain in the books as the "worst" accident. As far as shock appeal, however, I would put the Pan Am/Lockerbee or TWA flight 800 up there as "worst" accidents. But there are many and that would be a digression.
Visibility at the time of that Tenerife accident was less than 1/4 mile. That one factor alone probably would have avoided the collision because the KLM crew would have seen the Pan Am plane back taxiing on the runway. But in absence of good visibility, you have to rely on solid communications with ground control to keep things in place. As with all accidents, this one was the result of a chain of events rather than one specific factor. That was 1977 when the only technology for managing ground traffic was eyes and ears. And here we are today, 30 years later, just starting to phase in ground traffic monitoring systems.
AAA73Pilot
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I don't want to fly to age 65. I am being forced to due to my lost retirement. Instead of raising the PBGC and lowering the social security age Congress wants us to work longer and pay more into the system. More fun!
Hope this doesn't happen to me!!
Bob Loblaw
Member
After listening to the tape and looking at the diagram I am still unsure what the taxi directions were. Having never been to Philly I don't know the protocols. But I do every now and then get unclear clearances or am not sure of what I heard. And when I get totally confused I just stop the airplane and wait for the controller to unstick himself from the ceiling. He can scream at me all he wants but I reply that I'm not playing this game of moving airplanes at any cost if I'm not sure what I'm supposed to do. I don't give a flying frick how big of a problem I create. I've gone through the violation thing once and been exonerated. Not going to do it again. The larger the airport and the busier the more I enjoy gumming up the works but it rarely happens! I get paid by the minute.
Bob
Bob
E
EastUS
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Sound wisdom in my book as well.
If this had been west metal you easties would've been all over this like a rash. A 5 pager for sure. This sorta thing could've happened to anyone. The ATC instructions were vague at best.
PA18
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The other contributing factor to this incident is the construction that has been ongoing on Taxiway S in the vicinity of Taxiway N. (For some reason, the PHL airport insists on tearing up taxiways every summer, at the height of the heavy travel season.) As a result of the construction, the crew was issued a very non-standard clearance from that to which they are accustomed in PHL.
For years, flights landing on 9R have exited left on one of the high-speed taxiways, proceeded east on Taxiway S, and turned left on Taxiway N, to await crossing clearance between departures on 9L. This crew apparently was cleared to turn from Taxiway S onto Taxiway U, then Taxiway P, which brought them to Taxiway N almost adjacent to 9L. They then received the very unusual clearance to turn right onto Taxiway N. If anything, these factors could possibly make an East crew more susceptible to an incident like this, since they are doing something very non-standard at an airport they use all the time.
The construction, the unusual clearance, and the fact that it was midnight I'm sure were all contributing factors. The important thing is, nobody was hurt, and the rest of us can learn from it and be that much more heads-up when operating at PHL.
For years, flights landing on 9R have exited left on one of the high-speed taxiways, proceeded east on Taxiway S, and turned left on Taxiway N, to await crossing clearance between departures on 9L. This crew apparently was cleared to turn from Taxiway S onto Taxiway U, then Taxiway P, which brought them to Taxiway N almost adjacent to 9L. They then received the very unusual clearance to turn right onto Taxiway N. If anything, these factors could possibly make an East crew more susceptible to an incident like this, since they are doing something very non-standard at an airport they use all the time.
The construction, the unusual clearance, and the fact that it was midnight I'm sure were all contributing factors. The important thing is, nobody was hurt, and the rest of us can learn from it and be that much more heads-up when operating at PHL.
PHL Approach
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Ok, I decided to listen to the audio myself in entirety and I found some more stuff that is pretty crucial. It's still not lookin' good for that Captain.
The new clip first starts off with Local West (Controller running 9R) giving USA1752 his initial taxi instructions off of 9R. Only Uniform to Papa.
A320 Driver, here is your answer for why the controller said "I gave you taxi instructions" At 3:00 into the clip LW tells USA1752 to follow the regional on Sierra, the RJ was the aircraft that caused SWA2570 to Go Around so he was exiting 9R at Sierra 1 and making a right on Sierra. That's why LW said "I gave you taxi instructions" since he had already told him about the RJ that he wanted 1752 to follow for the sequence over to Echo.
FlyLow22, couple of people have said the same thing on other forums. "Why didn't the controller say hold short 9L?" It's because he didn't want him to hold short 9L! He wanted him to go the opposite direction. I'm only thinking that either pilot was confused and transposing Kilo as Sierra, if that was the case why weren't they looking at their airport diagram and you would think most USA guys would never be confused at Philly. Considering both Kilo and Sierra are the heaviest used taxiways at the airport and both parallel a runway. That's probably why he didn't see that RJ to follow, possibly because he was looking north up towards Juliet and Kilo...
Note: I left in some more time after it went down. He got pulled from position a little under 3 minutes after it happened.
First time using this site, hopefully it stays up:
http://www.mediafire.com/?61zs7vdmjyz
---------------------------------
A320 Driver, in regards to that P50 (Phoenix TRACON) controller giving you a problem. I can understand them, PHX is the only facility I've heard that actually tells you the exact runway to expect under normal conditions and if they want to change it then they will let you know. Otherwise just expect the runway that the ATIS states:
Runway 26, Runway 25L, Runway 25R in use. Simultaneous Approaches in Use. Expect
visual approach runway 26, or visual approach runway 25L, ILS Approach runway 26, or
ILS Approach runway 25L. Departing runway 25R.
Aircraft from North expect runway 26.
Aircraft from South expect runway 25L.
Granted did sound like he was a bit of an ass, but I mean the ATIS can't break it down anymore.
The new clip first starts off with Local West (Controller running 9R) giving USA1752 his initial taxi instructions off of 9R. Only Uniform to Papa.
A320 Driver, here is your answer for why the controller said "I gave you taxi instructions" At 3:00 into the clip LW tells USA1752 to follow the regional on Sierra, the RJ was the aircraft that caused SWA2570 to Go Around so he was exiting 9R at Sierra 1 and making a right on Sierra. That's why LW said "I gave you taxi instructions" since he had already told him about the RJ that he wanted 1752 to follow for the sequence over to Echo.
FlyLow22, couple of people have said the same thing on other forums. "Why didn't the controller say hold short 9L?" It's because he didn't want him to hold short 9L! He wanted him to go the opposite direction. I'm only thinking that either pilot was confused and transposing Kilo as Sierra, if that was the case why weren't they looking at their airport diagram and you would think most USA guys would never be confused at Philly. Considering both Kilo and Sierra are the heaviest used taxiways at the airport and both parallel a runway. That's probably why he didn't see that RJ to follow, possibly because he was looking north up towards Juliet and Kilo...
Note: I left in some more time after it went down. He got pulled from position a little under 3 minutes after it happened.
First time using this site, hopefully it stays up:
http://www.mediafire.com/?61zs7vdmjyz
---------------------------------
A320 Driver, in regards to that P50 (Phoenix TRACON) controller giving you a problem. I can understand them, PHX is the only facility I've heard that actually tells you the exact runway to expect under normal conditions and if they want to change it then they will let you know. Otherwise just expect the runway that the ATIS states:
Runway 26, Runway 25L, Runway 25R in use. Simultaneous Approaches in Use. Expect
visual approach runway 26, or visual approach runway 25L, ILS Approach runway 26, or
ILS Approach runway 25L. Departing runway 25R.
Aircraft from North expect runway 26.
Aircraft from South expect runway 25L.
Granted did sound like he was a bit of an ass, but I mean the ATIS can't break it down anymore.
A320 Driver
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You know, I wrote out this huge responce and deleted it. The bottom line is that questions were asked and answers WERE NOT GIVEN. IMO, it is inexcusable and is part of the bigger problem of runway incursions.
The crew of 1752 is going to end up in a conference room with the FAA, US Airways Corporate Safety, ALPA Safety, and probably a representative from the runway incursion task force. They will all listen to the tapes together. Although the crew is ultimately responcible, how is the FAA going to explain away the fact that a clarification was asked for and refused. The whole damn thing could have ended right there, but it didn't. It's a good process, but none the less humilitating having to sit there and listen to yourself on tape.
The process requires honesty and if you want to get right down to it, an opportunity to avoid this whole mess from happening existed...the ground controller took a pass.
A320 Driver <_<
N924PS
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It can happen to a 23 year old Mesa RJ Captain too. Probably already has but didn't make the media.
You can't have my seat for 5 more years, so get over it.
gabby
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Exactly the attitude that got your seniority taken away, sent jets to regionals, and the low E190 pay.
Eating the young will catch up to you old man. At least i have Karma on my side.
N924PS
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