Frequent flyer program should be terminated in BK

[737823]

This program should be terminated in BK,how can you expect to be made whole when the company as it claims can't pay it's bills?This is nothing more than a perk just like the executives receive.The plan should be zeroed out in BK. It's a commitment the company chose to pay,It should be required to pay pensions before any perks are honored.

Neither is alienating your employees.

The fact is that customer loyalty is not that important when capacity is low. If AA was really that worried about customer loyalty they would not have the seats so close together and charge for every little thing. The airlines are getting so cocky they are treating customers with the same disdain as they treat their workers, and the planes are still full.

If AA downsizes in BK then capacity will be even lower, meaning that customers will have to compete for seats.

Frequent Flier miles are a liability, the company already spent the money they got for them and owes them the service. Just like any other creditor, these people all extended credit to AA and when you do that there is always risk associated with it. So if it's a choice between writing off that liability or something that we have worked for such as deferred compensation in the form of retiree medical or the pension then I say dump the FF miles. Sure it will piss off a bunch of customers but choices are limited,It will not have any considerable permanent impact on their lives unlike making changes to our deferred compensation would.

70% of the domestic market is controlled by four carriers. People also have short memories, sure they will say they will never fly AA again, until they find that's the only way to get there.

This is nonsense. I can't believe the ignorance of the employee posters on this forum. The AAdvantage program is about the only reason left to fly AA and without it AA would lose valuable customers to competing carriers. Like it or not, customers occupying the seats and terminals pay your salary and need to come first. It's likely there will be minimal changes to the AAdvantage program as a result of the BK and we saw with CO, DL, and UA.

Josh

 

[Hopeful]

This is nonsense. I can't believe the ignorance of the employee posters on this forum. The AAdvantage program is about the only reason left to fly AA and without it AA would lose valuable customers to competing carriers. Like it or not, customers occupying the seats and terminals pay your salary and need to come first. It's likely there will be minimal changes to the AAdvantage program as a result of the BK and we saw with CO, DL, and UA.

Josh

True. But the less passengers pay for a ticket, the less employees make.
Airline employees have become a piggy bank for airlines to offer cheap fares and virtually every cost they incur including fuel.

 

[737823]

True. But the less passengers pay for a ticket, the less employees make.
Airline employees have become a piggy bank for airlines to offer cheap fares and virtually every cost they incur including fuel.

You are not subsidizing cheap fares for the last time. The dynamics of the airline market are such that passenger fares have fallen in this cut throat business. If anything AAdvantage attracts revenue and provides increased job security for employees.

Josh

 

[Hopeful]

You are not subsidizing cheap fares for the last time. The dynamics of the airline market are such that passenger fares have fallen in this cut throat business. If anything AAdvantage attracts revenue and provides increased job security for employees.

Josh

I am speaking from the school of Airline Management 101 starting with deregulation...In order for airlines to compete with Greyhound and Trailways and their passengers, airlines had to reinvent themselves...And what did they do as the quickest easiest reaction?

They went after labor with a vengeance. They went after the pay and benefits of airline employees to achieve the goal of cheap fares.
Spare me the "dynamics" schoolbook rhethoric regarding the airline biz....I'm an airline employee veteran spanning four decades. I have seen the decimation of airline employees through the eyes and experiences of employees of Braniff, Eastern, PanAm and TWA just to mention legacy carriers. Now I will see it at AA.
Airlines weren't happy with pay cuts , they wanted benefits and pensions....they wanted it all.....Now they have it..

But guess what Josh? Thanks to deregulation and that golden opportunity to enable the average person to fly, the passenger is NOW paying for everything except using the toilet..Delays up the ying yang..in most cases no more hotel accomodations for cancelling trips...maybe a meal voucher here and there....You tell me how great the passenger has it.

Fares are gradually creeping up and the passenger gets nothing more in return.

Deregulation is a FAILED experiment.

 

[Hopeful]

If anything AAdvantage attracts revenue and provides increased job security for employees.

Josh

Tell that to the thousands of AA employees about to lose their jobs!

 

[eolesen]

But guess what Josh? Thanks to deregulation and that golden opportunity to enable the average person to fly, the passenger is NOW paying for everything except using the toilet..Delays up the ying yang..in most cases no more hotel accomodations for cancelling trips...maybe a meal voucher here and there....You tell me how great the passenger has it.

Fares are gradually creeping up and the passenger gets nothing more in return.

Deregulation is a FAILED experiment.

The only people who have been failed by deregulation have been the union employees.

Delays and hotels? Only had one overnight delay this year, not on AA or a oneworld carrier

Here's a fact for y'all. FF programs work. They keep people spending money you instead of just chasing the lowest fare possible. In many cases, spending more money to fly on AA or a partner. The mythical revenue premium. Yes, it does exist.

Thats not just a marketing school statement. I flew a lot in 2011... 139,000 miles. 122K of that was on oneworld carriers. 80% of my business, but 84% of the money spent. By comparison, Star carriers got 18% of my business but only 14% of my money. Skyteam carriers got 1% (thanks in part to WT's efforts at promoting them here).

You could get rid of AAdv if you want, but it will just create more of a revenue gap in the long run, which is why it won't be done.

 

[chris perry]

189 Airlines failed,I would call it a failure....For management,Lawyers etc. I would say it's a winner,Bonues get big when you return from BK... It's all on the back of the worker they pay the price.

 

[chris perry]

This is nonsense. I can't believe the ignorance of the employee posters on this forum. The AAdvantage program is about the only reason left to fly AA and without it AA would lose valuable customers to competing carriers. Like it or not, customers occupying the seats and terminals pay your salary and need to come first. It's likely there will be minimal changes to the AAdvantage program as a result of the BK and we saw with CO, DL, and UA.

Josh

I posted this to see you guys reaction.I don't really believe it should be terminated.. But when it's a perk of management or FF you guys blow up like it's a gold mine..That's my right those are my miles,the point is you guys don't even give a #### when its taken from employee's...You act like it's your god given right to steal money from frontline workers..

 

[NYCDelta]

The only people who have been failed by deregulation have been the union employees.

Delays and hotels? Only had one overnight delay this year, not on AA or a oneworld carrier

Here's a fact for y'all. FF programs work. They keep people spending money you instead of just chasing the lowest fare possible. In many cases, spending more money to fly on AA or a partner. The mythical revenue premium. Yes, it does exist.

Thats not just a marketing school statement. I flew a lot in 2011... 139,000 miles. 122K of that was on oneworld carriers. 80% of my business, but 84% of the money spent. By comparison, Star carriers got 18% of my business but only 14% of my money. Skyteam carriers got 1% (thanks in part to WT's efforts at promoting them here).

You could get rid of AAdv if you want, but it will just create more of a revenue gap in the long run, which is why it won't be done.

I don't think AA will shed AADVANTAGE, nor should they. But, I do think that airline FF programs are evolving. Westjet and WN FF program, although unpopular to many FF's, are the way to go. I think FF's who spend the most money should get the greatest perks. Anybody can fly on a $59 ticket every weekend to Florida and earn enough miles to become elite. If you have 2 elites with the same number of miles, one who spent $12,000 and the other $30,000 to get that same status, if I ran an airline, I know who I would give more to: the one who spent more.

 

[Bob Owens]

The only people who have been failed by deregulation have been the union employees.

Are you saying that non-union airline workers have not been adversely affected since deregulation?
:blink: :blink:
I say wipe the late clean. Any miles earned before November 29 are expired, think of it as sharing h pain and your contribution to buy those nice new airplanes for you to ride on.

 

[FWAAA]

I say wipe the late clean. Any miles earned before November 29 are expired, think of it as sharing h pain and your contribution to buy those nice new airplanes for you to ride on.

Wonder why the other legacy airlines didn't do that when they filed their Ch 11 petitions?

If you really want some pain sharing, why not cancel all unused tickets purchased prior to November 29?

 

[chris perry]

FWAAA that's what supposed to happen in BK. The company is supposed to be broke not maneuvering for better labor rates...

 

[BoeingBoy]

A company of significant size can't be literally broke and file for chapter 11 bankruptcy with any chance of success - going through chapter 11 is a pretty expensive process - just the lawyers will get millions of dollars, maybe 10's of millions. A broke company goes straight to chapter 7 - liquidation.

Chapter 11 is about reorganizing the company - a nice way of saying that it's a way of screwing everyone possible in the attempt to get the company profitable. Everyone includes employees, creditors, vendors, owners (shareholders), etc.

Jim

 

[FWAAA]

All very true, BoeingBoy.

I would sumbit that a company with assets (including its $4 billion of cash) of $24 billion and debts, liabilities and other obligations of $29 billion, that loses over $1 billion in a year when every other competitor is profitable is, indeed, broke.

AMR does have enough cash (all borrowed, Chris Perry) to survive a ch 11 reorganization.

Two choices: Screw every possible constituency in hopes of reducing costs enough to survive as a going concern or liquidate. No doubt a few chest-thumpers will scream "LIQUIDATE, Already," but thousands of others will realize that it's their time to experience what employees of US, UA, NW and DL faced over the past decade.

UA spent nearly $660 million on bankruptcy lawyers, investment bankers, accountants and other parasitic advisors during its three year bankruptcy odyssey. I expect AA's bankruptcy to run in the hundreds of millions of dollars in expenses, as lawyers' fees have risen substantially since 2003.

 

[chris perry]

I have no control how AA runs it's business but apparently they are lacking...If they were in fact genius businessmen we wouldn't be in this predicament.