Getting Obama involved with AA/BA

[Hopeful]

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/081105/obama_pilots.html?.v=2

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

Once again, the pilots will stop at nothing to try to kill a deal that will bring AA more revenue and increase their chance of getting some of that raise they are demanding.

The cynical (and realist) side of me says that Hill is just trying to secure another bargaining chip for negotiations. He has to know that the pilots have zero chance of actually blocking the deal... he's just trying to convince AA management that that's not the case.

 

[Hopeful]

Once again, the pilots will stop at nothing to try to kill a deal that will bring AA more revenue and increase their chance of getting some of that raise they are demanding.

The cynical (and realist) side of me says that Hill is just trying to secure another bargaining chip for negotiations. He has to know that the pilots have zero chance of actually blocking the deal... he's just trying to convince AA management that that's not the case.

I don't think it is a waste of time to try and protect jobs. You cannot guarantee that no jobs will be lost just as the pilots cannot say for certain there will be jobs lost.

 

[CubsFanJohn]

The APA leadership is trying to vent there frustration about the lack of contract as I said Hill needs to get back into reality.

 

[Boomer]

In 2006, the Democrats were voted into power in both the House and Senate.

In 2008, the Democrats were able to further consolidate power in both houses of the Legislature and gain control of the White House.

When will the Labor Friendly Democrats change Section 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code so that abrogation of RLA Union Contracts by an air carrier in bankruptcy permit an immediate resort to self-help by the RLA covered Unions?

If Democrats are soo Labor Friendly, why has it taken soo long for them to act?

 

[eolesen]

Good luck. Given how rarely it's invoked, you're going to need a little more reason for changing the law than you've got right now. To date, there has been only one actual S1113 arbrogation in the airlines since 1986. I don't have stats on how many have occurred outside the airlines, but it's pretty rare since there's a vested interest for both sides to come to a consensual agreement.

The bigger concern is the precedent it sets.

Simply put, if labor is allowed to self-help, so creditors will demand the same right, and they've got more ability to shut down a company than labor does.

Banks will want the ability to seize aircraft immediately, instead of the airline having 60 days to decide what stays, and making arrangements with the bank.

Landlords will want the right to lock out tenants until they're paid up on their back rent.

Vendors will demand the right to change payment terms to cash up front if they're going to continue providing services.

I'm by no means a big fan of the bankruptcy process, but rightly or wrongly, those protections are intended to give breathing room to a company trying to restructure. Take away that, and you've essentially put the the opportunity to restructure at risk. You may even see more companies wind up liquidating.

It's questionable whether that really serves anyone's interests in the long run.



As for asking Obama for help.... If you believe the dividing line between rich and middle class is really $200K per year, pilots can easily be painted as falling into the category of the rich.

Is Obama really going to go out of his way to help a bunch of rich pilots? Probably not. He wants to redistribute the wealth, and even if execs worked for nothing, it's pretty clear there wouldn't be enough cash left to also bring up the wages of those who fall into his definition of the working middle class...

 

[TWU informer]

When legislation is introduced both Democrats and Republicans are friends with lobbyist money. There is no "Labor Friendly" party when it comes to worthy legislation. Yeah labor might get a change in how they get more dues payers by elminating the secret ballot, but when it comes to Bankruptcy Laws, Foriegn Maintenance restrictions, or even standing on the side lines of an RLA Labor dispute you can forget it.

The Supreme Court has ruled "money" is free speech, and we all know who has all the "money".

Until the AFL-CIO and labor gets out of bed with the democratic party and admits these truths, the working man will suffer.

These days there is a large difference between help for organized labor and help for working men and women. Labor as an institution may have a little influence to grow the institution using your dues money, but as far the middle class really making any gains, well lets just say laws and lawmakers are not what we should be counting on.

Most of our unelected union leaders qualify as rich using the Obama definition. Do you really think they banging on the door for a tax increase?

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

Anybody else notice that today prez-elect Obama flew ORD-DCA on AA (charter?)?

 

[The Dissident]

Unfortunately the labor unions have once again been duped by democrats for their support. Look who B.O. surrounds himslef with and who he is putting on his staff. BANKERS AND MONEY CHANGERS!!!! Think about it. Do you honestly believe that labor is going to make any advances when there isnt even a seat at the table for us. Labor has been sold a bill of goods once again and is going to be holding an empty bag. Take a look at the Democrats in Congress and the Senate. There are all or nearly all MILLIONAIRES. Do you think they are really out for the working man? Expect no help form them. Nor from the Republicans. There is no goverment any more just a corptocracy.

 

[Ed Norton]

Unfortunately the labor unions have once again been duped by democrats for their support. Look who B.O. surrounds himslef with and who he is putting on his staff. BANKERS AND MONEY CHANGERS!!!! Think about it. Do you honestly believe that labor is going to make any advances when there isnt even a seat at the table for us. Labor has been sold a bill of goods once again and is going to be holding an empty bag. Take a look at the Democrats in Congress and the Senate. There are all or nearly all MILLIONAIRES. Do you think they are really out for the working man? Expect no help form them. Nor from the Republicans. There is no goverment any more just a corptocracy.

Speak not foul of our new Messiah! HE will save us! HE walks on water!
There have been numerous Obama-ritions (Obama apparitions)world wide after selection day! I myself saw an Obama-rition on a potato chip last night!
Obama is just a new face on the same old scam. A scam run by the globalist bankers and financial houses who own the private bank called the Federal Reserve and the U.S. corporate government.
MEET THE NEW BOSS, SAME AS THE OLD BOSS! :down: :down:

 

[frontline]

I know we have already debated the merits of this proposed deal quite a bit, so I won't rehash. As Hopeful says, no one can guarantee there will not be jobs lost a result. Common sense, however, would say that more revenue for the company equals better job security. This isn't like the SCOPE clause with Eagle where the pilots want to prevent massive route expansion on smaller a/c. That I understand. This is just a case of politiking by Comrade Hill. eolesen demonstrated in another thread that international codesharing (UA/LH, NW/KL, etc) has not resulted in less routes, it's resulted in more. The international markets are where the growth is right now anyway. I think the pilots are making a big fuss about nothing.

 

[Boomer]

Good luck. Given how rarely it's invoked, you're going to need a little more reason for changing the law than you've got right now. To date, there has been only one actual S1113 arbrogation in the airlines since 1986. I don't have stats on how many have occurred outside the airlines, but it's pretty rare since there's a vested interest for both sides to come to a consensual agreement.

The bigger concern is the precedent it sets.

Simply put, if labor is allowed to self-help, so creditors will demand the same right, and they've got more ability to shut down a company than labor does.

Banks will want the ability to seize aircraft immediately, instead of the airline having 60 days to decide what stays, and making arrangements with the bank.

Landlords will want the right to lock out tenants until they're paid up on their back rent.

Vendors will demand the right to change payment terms to cash up front if they're going to continue providing services.

I'm by no means a big fan of the bankruptcy process, but rightly or wrongly, those protections are intended to give breathing room to a company trying to restructure. Take away that, and you've essentially put the the opportunity to restructure at risk. You may even see more companies wind up liquidating.

It's questionable whether that really serves anyone's interests in the long run.



As for asking Obama for help.... If you believe the dividing line between rich and middle class is really $200K per year, pilots can easily be painted as falling into the category of the rich.

Is Obama really going to go out of his way to help a bunch of rich pilots? Probably not. He wants to redistribute the wealth, and even if execs worked for nothing, it's pretty clear there wouldn't be enough cash left to also bring up the wages of those who fall into his definition of the working middle class...

E,
You're slipping.

Sect. 1113 of the Bankruptcy Code specifically deals with only the ability of Companies covered by the RLA in relationship to those Unions that maintain representation rights for those companies.

Specifically stating that: "an RLA covered Union whose contract is abrogated by a Section 1113 motion before the bankruptcy court has the right to engage in self-help, as defined under the RLA," will have none of the effects you cited.

Of course, you knew that already.

The thrust of the post was that Democratic Majorities in the House and Senate with the addition of the Executive Branch have done squat for the working man in aviation...despite the claims of many on this board and all of the major Unions.

Your reply was an attempt to muddy the waters on an issue airline management desparately wished to remain settled.

 

[Bagbelt]

Way before my time, but my father worked for TWA in the 60's. working with people of that generation at AA was a pleasure. Those guys knew what a union was. As a lifelong Democrat I can only hope that Obama delivers. If he doesn't I'll never vote for either major party again. The best times were when the IAM could shut 2 or 3 carriers at the same time. LBJ stopped that, and Kennedy and Carter deregulated- so I realize that both parties were in on it. I left an industry I loved because it became too much to ask. Why do employees have to sacrifice so much? Other industies pass along their costs to the consumer, the airline business is a shadow of itself and even when in the late 90's everything was gangbusters it was doom and gloom.

 

[Ifly2]

"LBJ stopped that, and Kennedy and Carter deregulated- so I realize that both parties were in on it."


Say What?

 

[Boomer]

Not to be rude: but,

When will the chosen ONE lead the tribe towards labor justice in the airline arena.

Given majorities in the House and Senate: when do RLA Covered Unions obtain the right to strike when their contracts are abrogated under Section 1113 of the bankruptcy code?