Glad to have located our flyboys, or is it "the life of the rich and famous"

[mancityfan]

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On 8/23/2002 11:36:26 PM

To you mancityfan I apologize, I came to pick a fight as you can tell. We are trying so hard everyday to prove we are worth what we have fought for, and it's tearing us up that we can't save this company with just hard work. We all gave to save this company for so long, and it was more profitable than any other airline, and then they screwed us so bad. This is where I want to be and this is what I am good at doing, but they don't care. Now all of us are years older, and still picking up the pieces. Now you guys want us to make a deal with these same people, jesus, I could "gut" them where they stand. We are so tired of being trampled, some of the best I knew are just walking shells anymore. I just don't know if its worth saving, I'm sorry.
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No need to apologize to me!!! If you had been on here more often, you would already know I am the LAST person you need to apologize to. However, thank you for your respect. AS for the "THEM" in your post, I think "THEY" will not be here very shortly! We (ALPA) have been promised that the new CEO WILL NOT be cming from inside the company, and that R.D. and A.S. will be leaving shortly after the new CEO is announced (which might even be this weekend from what I hear! )

As for feeling gutted, I know what you are talking about! I gave tens of thousands of dollars for ESOP stock that was once worth $170K, and is now worth about $5K! I paid $100K for my flight training, and only just finished paying it off last year WITH MY RETRO PAY (how ironic!). I finally got a non-concessionary contract after giving up 23.7% and receiving an inflation adjustment for the years of the ESOP (Even Studdert agrees that the pilot contract was NOT excessive, as it was not even beating inflation!!), and I made Captain the month C2K kicked in! I had finally made it! I was able to buy a house at age 35, we could "afford" another child, and we even splurged on a Minivan when my airport car (my Father-in-Law's 90 Corsica) finally died. However, I still get to drive the 94 Accord to the airport..no new car for the Tokyo bus stop!!

I guess what I am trying to relate is there is more than enough bitterness to go around, and I could be (and have been) just as angry and outspoken as you about it all. However, if ANYTHING is going to change at UAL, it is going to have to come from the ground up...EMPLOYEES FIRST! The mgmt of this airline does not have to deal with all the sh!t that hits the fan at ORD when the wx goes down! The mgmt of this airline are the same people who after my aircraft was sitting out at the runway at IND for 1:30 gave my takoff slot to a FERRY from the INDMM hangar to ORD, even though I had 107 souls on board!! THAT particular piece of "management" cost all 107 of us another two hours on the ground at IND, a return to the gate, and more than a few angry passengers!! Believe me, each employee group has its cross to bear, and you guys may well have more than most. However, as I said, if ANYTHING is going to get better at UAL, it is going to take a "rallying around the flag" of whomever gets the unenviable task of fixing what ails us. I don't mind giving to keep my job, secure a future for my wife and kids and keep my a/c cold in my 94 Accord! Would I give it to the idiots who have created this mess? NO WAY! But they will not be here and we will. I am giving it for myself and the other 84,000 of us who "love the smell of (kerosene) in the morning"!!

Take care, pop a cold brew and hug the missus! This too shall pass!

All the best,

mancityfan

 

[mastermechanic]

Busdrvr, it's called "go to where the work is", and we can utilize our skill across mutiple industry spectrums.

Mancityfan is a "stick" I can like. No snivel, just a straight shooter. Life on the road I know is not all that easy. And I know very well that getting an education while working is really tough, been there also. I also feel that you are not buying my ticket, you are buying 16yrs of experience. Corporate doesn't care, but screw them anyways. I've done just about everything you can imagine to a airplane, from deserts to jungles, at sea and in just about every temperature and climate. Sucks it all came down to this.

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 8/23/2002 1107 PM

"and can you believe it Busdrvr...they let a muscle head moron like me move that big 'ol airplane just like you pretty boys...yes'm, they musta made a mistake to let this 'ol marine just touch all those highly sophisticated buttons and knobs and such..."

Nope, the mistake would be hiring someone with that selfobsorbed attitude.

"do ya think I can get some of that $250hr stuff too their big chief???"
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Wish I could. You see, I averaged just over 50K a year the last two years as a UAL pilot. My retro was less than 1K. C2K did not provide me with a raise. But you've got it ALL figured out don't ya. Yep, all us pilots make 250K. BTW, I'm not a chief
[]

 

[autofixer]

You-all sound just like USAir(ways). I think you will fit real good (intended) at the bottom of the Allegehny list! Right behind all of those thousands hired through nepotism and paybacks! THINK ABOUT IT! [:devil:] 0+0=0

 

[kcabpilot]

Personally I don't hold a grudge against anyone else in this company. Okay, maybe against top management and maybe even against middle management and some of it is justifiable but the result is that I'm painting everyone in a certain group with the same brush. So I'll admit that doing this isn't right. These concessions could work and United could be saved if there was any kind of trust between the groups but we are totally and obviously splintered. Have you ever heard stories of a plane crash where it appeared that the two pilots had fought over the controls on the way down?

Unfortunately I can't offer any solutions, none of us can. There is big money involved here and whenever that is the case there are those desirous enough for the wealth and power to actually kill people for it so I’ll just bow out. It’s not worth it.

However, I’m somewhat uplifted by the commendable efforts of a few participants in this thread to actually show a smidge of respect towards each other and admit that we all have an important part to serve. That’s an encouraging first step.

Well, a baby step anyway.

 

[GGpillow]

I gotta give props to mastermechanic for actually having the berries to come on and admit he was trying to start a fight. A rather refreshing breeze of honesty that you don't see from a lot of the folks who post on boards such as TM.

 

[CAETravlr]

I have to say, I have really enjoyed reading the posts on this thread. I have enjoyed the insights into the jobs that the mechanics and the pilots perform, and the conditions under which you guys are forced to perform them. I have been on many many flights, and always arrived safely where I was suppoesd to be. Thank you all for your hard work, for your skill, and unwavering dedication to safety first. These are the reasons that I choose to fly United and am able to sit back and relax on each and every flight, even if things are running a bit late or whatever.

I hope that with the announcement of new management, you guys are able to come to an agreement with the company on whatever it will take to appease the ATSB. I, as a shareholder and a customer want to see new management as much as the rest of you. I understand your axes to grind with current management, and your desire not to throw good money after bad. I just only hope that BK is avoided somehow, and UAL can stabilize and return to profitability in the not too distant future.

Wishing the best of luck to you all,
CAETravlr

 

[novaqt]

CAETvlr:

Appreciate your comments about our company. We are glad to have the opportunity to serve you and make your flying experience with us safe, simple, dependable, comfortable and helpful. Thanks for flying United.[]

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 8/24/2002 12:18:02 PM


I hope that with the announcement of new management, you guys are able to come to an agreement with the company on whatever it will take to appease the ATSB. I, as a shareholder and a customer want to see new management as much as the rest of you. I understand your axes to grind with current management, and your desire not to throw good money after bad. I just only hope that BK is avoided somehow, and UAL can stabilize and return to profitability in the not too distant future.

Wishing the best of luck to you all,
CAETravlr
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Here's an even better Idea! Please give Hollings and Stroms office a call and tell that you think the ATSB has deginerated into a political game. The terms they are dictating are so deep IMHO, we wouldn't need the loan. Give them your honest assestment of UAL, and the importance of a strong UAL to help bring about a strong U (them Good ol boys from DAL need some comp.). Any help we get is always appreciated. It is the feeling of our management that the ATSB is looking for a fall guy and UAL is it. They are VERY disappointed in the political nature of the process.

BTW, UAL has THE BEST mechanics in the industry BAR NONE. Our gripes at each other center around such things as "money", "fair share", and "reality". But any day i go out to the jet, I know it is in pristine operating condition, made and kept so by a bunch of professionals.

 

[mastermechanic]

I swear I'm not picking a fight on this, just would like to know some facts. Why is there so much controversy on SW's pilots and ours? How much do you guys fly and what is the limit allowed by FAR's? When I talked to Creighton privately he conveyed to me we were not labor competitive. When I tried to pin him down on specifics he deferred reference to the mechanics and started on the pilots. Comments such as pilots constitute 10% of the ranks but account for 40% of the labor costs? Then he said it wasn't so much the money but the work rules? I know none of this; this is just what was said. No fight, just asking.

 

[mastermechanic]

On another point, how can you guys or anybody deal with these people. You're making deals with the devil again. There can be no talk until they are gone, and I don't just mean Ronno or Andy either. If given the power I would make Stalin look like a choir boy before I was done....and probably dragged to the Hague for the crimes I had committed!!!

 

[skyblue]

mastermechanic,

>>Why is there so much controversy on SW's pilots and ours? How much do you guys fly and what is the limit allowed by FAR's? When I talked to Creighton privately he conveyed to me we were not labor competitive. When I tried to pin him down on specifics he deferred reference to the mechanics and started on the pilots. Comments such as pilots constitute 10% of the ranks but account for 40% of the labor costs? Then he said it wasn't so much the money but the work rules? <<<

The UAL pilots get yogurt and go to the airport magazine stand and stand around during their 1+10 turns or have to drag bags from gate to gate during aircraft swaps at their hub airports while the SWA pilots get more flying accomplished during their duty day (and so do the airplanes)with just 30 minute turns and very few airplane swaps. (Not the UAL pilots fault - it's due to the hub and spoke). Combine this with...

The SWA pilot's union does not cap their monthly flying and guys are free to pick up all the extra flying they care to up to FAR limits (The free enterprise system)or they volunteerly list themselves for reserve type flying on days off. Enough pilots do this that the % of pilots on reserve at SWA is much lower than at most other airlines. This saves thousands of dollars a month in staffing. When I discussed all this with a UAL pilot a few years ago he arrogantly said, "When you are making billions of $$$ a year like UAL is, who cares about saving thousands? Besides, the SWA system doesn't create pilot jobs."

 

[Busdrvr]

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On 8/24/2002 940 PM

The SWA pilot's union does not cap their monthly flying and guys are free to pick up all the extra flying they care to up to FAR limits (The free enterprise system)or they volunteerly list themselves for reserve type flying on days off. Enough pilots do this that the % of pilots on reserve at SWA is much lower than at most other airlines."

Throw in the fact that SWA does not acurately report Flt time and incentivises lying, and you'll see that many SWA pilots actually fly OVER the max allowed by law.

"This saves thousands of dollars a month in staffing. When I discussed all this with a UAL pilot a few years ago he arrogantly said, &amp;quot;When you are making billions of $$$ a year like UAL is, who cares about saving thousands? Besides, the SWA system doesn't create pilot jobs.&amp;quot;
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I does save MILLIONS. The question is, do I want to be away from home more than the 260 or so hours a month I'm away now? Talk about selling out your family time for a few extra bucks....Meanwhile lowering the bar for the rest of the industry. The SWA system does more than "not create jobs", it actually destroys them. All so a few senior guys in Dallas can score on stock options.

 

[mancityfan]

Mastermechanic:

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On 8/24/2002 8:59:26 PM

Comments such as pilots constitute 10% of the ranks but account for 40% of the labor costs? Then he said it wasn't so much the money but the work rules? I know none of this; this is just what was said. No fight, just asking.
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MM,

We can fly upto FAR hour limits per month, and FAR allows 1000 hours per year, but we are not scheduled that way, and also have DUTY rigs to protect us from becoming overly fatigued. One wonders why the company does NOT like the 3 for 1 duty rig that pilots prefer? It would make ALL OF US more productive when we are here, and give us more time off...a win-win for BOTH the company and the pilots. The reason?? The company prefers inefficient schedules because it gives them FAR more flexibility. But they blame lazy pilots!!

We would prefer to work hard at work, have decent length layovers to recouperate for the next day's long flights, and get home after 3 days having accomplished about 18-20 hours of flying. That would make every pilot month about 12-13 flying days even at the FAR maximum, and would allow pilots to have more time off to recouperate (especially from the international jet lag) and spend with their families. However, the company does NOT like duty rigs that FORCE THEM TO BE EFFICIENT! The reason why is because if the duty rig forces them, and they DO NOT do it, it costs them money!!!

Also, you will notice that the pilot's Contract 2000 has an aircraft utilization rate of 10 hours per day average per fleet. (JBLU has about 13 hours, for comparison). The pilots like this and would love for it to be hoigher. However, the company, under their current ERP plans, wants to lower this number to 9.1 hours per day per aircraft. Multiply about an hour per day per aircraft out over the month, and you can see that we are using LESS ASMs to cover our costs and FORCING our cost numbers to look worse. Even in 2003, when the "recovery" is supposed to begin, they increase the average utilization to only 9.25 hours per day, and they dont have to reach that until the END of 2003. Makes you wonder if they REALLY DO want to make money and fly airplanes, or just complain about the costs of the airline and pilots, in particular?!!

Now, the company is telling us they need a "Continental-type" cost structure to become profitable! Funny, but I thought even with their LOWER cost structure, they were still losing money? Probably just a coincidence that their 777 Captains make about what our 320/767 Captains make, huh??? "Everyone move back a pay grade and seat and take a 30% pay cut" Too bad it doesn't work that way in ALL the company jobs, THEN people would start to understand why the pilots beef about that stuff so much!!

Anyway, enough about Jack's comments! He did not even know what an RJ was after being CEO for over six months, and told the pilots that they were NOT going to get a pay cut for moving back a seat or two with all the furloughs!! Just shows you that he has been worth every penny we paid for him ($0!!) for the last year that we have floundered!! Time to say "Goodbye" to well-meaning but "in too deep" Jack, and, hopefully, "Hello!" to someone who will help change the course of this rudderless ship??



On the subject of costs, even the AFA's biased reporting of UAL costs has the pilots at 30%, and that includes benefits, many of which result from protections over losing our career for a medical condition that stops us from flying, but would not stop ANY other employee from continuing their work! And, anyway, the point is?

The plane (!) fact is that the GOVERNMENT makes it VERY difficult to become a pilot with a major airline, and is NOT willing to sacrifice a few thousand lives every year to save corporations a few bucks. Most people think this is a good thing, and has made the US Aviation industry the safest place to travel in the WORLD! Flying is so much safer than driving, I wish I could fly to Downtown Chicago from my house in the burbs! The only problem with flying is that it kills hundreds at a time when it goes wrong, and the resultant fireball and smoke etc.. usually makes the news. Not pretty, but statistically insignificant when compared to the number of people who die from flu or even lightning strikes every year!! Aviation's a "sexy" story, and that is it!

As for the costs of pilots, it works out to about $2 bucks per hour per passenger for a Captain and about $1.25 for a First Officer. So, for $3.25 per hour per passenger, we try to use all our experience and knowledge to get our valued passengers to their destination as safely as we know how....and your skills as a mechanic play no small part in that!! I think United would hold it's safety record up against all-comers. We fly in the most congested airsapce in the world and over the most remote places on Earth, and still we manage to have one of the best and safest records of any carrier on Earth. It is close to 40 years since UAL had a PILOT ERROR fatality. How many airlines can say that, especially when you look at our size and the number of ASMs we have flown over that same period?

Enough said! We are worth what we negotiate, and in good times we might get slightly ahead, and in bad times we pay dearly! Life moves on, but don't let ANYONE play the "you are not worth it!" game, bacause I have yet to find anyone who thinks the pilot that saves their life when the engine is on fire and they are sitting by the window watching their life flash before their eyes, is overpaid!

mancityfan

 

[skyblue]

>>>The question is, do I want to be away from home more than the 260 or so hours a month I'm away now? Talk about selling out your family time for a few extra bucks....Meanwhile lowering the bar for the rest of the industry. The SWA system does more than "not create jobs", it actually destroys them.<<<

I know plenty of guys who work like crazy a couple of months and then give away most of their trips in the following month. Their choice of lifestyle. I like the freedom to work as much or as little as I like. No one forces anyone toi do anything.

The SWA system has saved plenty of jobs for the SWA employees. Neither the SWA employees nor it's method of operation exists for the benefit of other airline employees, just as the UAL employees do not operate for the benefit of the SWA employees. It's the capitalistic and free enterprise system here in America that has made this country great. The communistic system in the world has failed miserably.