Government Air Ops

[Blackmac]

When I was with the contracting section for air ops in PWGSC we did a study on federal air ops , such as, firefighting,offshore survelliance, coast guard, including flight services for both aircraft and helicopters. Also included were aircraft operated by Environment Canada, and a few other departments.

Most of these jobs can and should be done by the private sector, including the Fisherie's helicopter contracts that were originally done by the private sector and then taken over "Coast Guard" to justify there helicopter program.

I HAVE STATED THIS BEFORE AND EVERYBODY INCLUDING "HAC" LETS THE DIFFERENT GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS OWN AND OPERATE AIRCRAFT ON THERE BEHALF.

TREASURY BOARD MAKES THE BROAD STATEMENT THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS NOT THERE TO DO BUSINESS THAT SHOULD BE DONE BY THE PRIVATE SECTOR.

BIG JOKE.

My province "Ontario".

The following should be privatized:

Ontario Hydro Helicopters
OPP Helicopters
MNR Helicopters and Water Bombers
???????

THIS TAKEN FROM PPRuNe:

Public Use or Contract out to Private Industry?
Lately, several arguments have been heard regards "Public Use" aircraft and operation of those aircraft by government agencies within the United States.

Private Operators take the position Government Agencies should not be allowed to take advantage of the US Government's Federal Excess Personal Property (FEPP) to obtain surplus aircraft and equipment at taxpayer expense, then modify those aircraft (again at taxpayer expense), operate under the very lenient FAR's pertaining to "Public Use" aircraft and operations, then "compete" with the private sector to perform functions that could be contracted out or performed by the private sector.

The US Forest Service contracts out a tremendous amount of work and has policies that require the agency to use the private industry whenever possible.

The State of Oregon, for instance, has state legislation (lobbied for by private ....meaning non-governmental....helicopter operators) that require the State Government to operate to the exact same standard as regular operators so that at least the maintenance and training standards are the same for both state "public use" aircraft and operations as for the private sector.

Question.....should governmental agencies be allowed to operate their own aviation units under the "Public Use" regulations, obtain aircraft by means of the FEPP and use taxpayer dollars to subsidize their operations and then compete with the private sector for operations, flights, aerial work, tasks, and such that could be contracted out or done wholly by the private sector? Is this competition and its detrimental effect upon private industry good for the national interest? Are these government operations and their negative effect upon the profitability of the private sector actually harming the amount of resources that could be available in time of natural disasters or terrorist events?

-------------------------

Allthough allot of what is said does not apply in Canada, the similarities are there.

Try and list any other jobs that governments are presently doing, that could be done by the private sector.


Cheers, Don

 

[Albert Ross]

Why should they be done by the private sector if they are saving public money by owning their own?

Phil

 

[Blackmac]

Alberto: Studies have been done and anything done by a government entity has always proven more costly than the same operation done by the private sector under a competitive basis, except of course the IMP's who under bid to get a contract and then complain.

DND who write up the specs and PWGSC who do the contracting are well known to these companies and you would be surprised what they can get away with, which in turn of course costs the tax payer more money.

If you did a study on military contracts you would be amazed at how many old boys from the club work for people doing military work.

In the original contract for the navy EH-101 a General from NDHQ who was responsible for writing the specs on the internal equipment (electronic) quit the military and went to work for one of the prime contractors who was bidding on and expected to win the contract.

As far as I know there does not seem to be any conflict of interest guidlines for certain departments.

Chief pilot for RCMP shopping for a/c, retires and goes to work for company selling the actual aircraft that the RCMP bought???????

And the list goes on on on on on.

Cheers, Don

PS: If you care to go back in the posts, I told you who was going to win the present helicopter contract about a year ago

 

[Albert Ross]

I know it always costs more to do anything by committee, but if they got a half-reasonable guy in to run it, and did it properly, then I have no problem with them saving the public dollar.

Where I get out of my tree is when they take advantage of their subsidised position to undercut other operators, and do it illegally, like the MNR do in NS. At least the Coastguard went to the trouble to get an AOC

Phil

 

[Blackmac]

AR; The coast guard owns the helicopters and they are operated by flight services and have been in operation since the dark ages.

As there was originally a requirement for the government to get into operating aircraft as the civilian capacity was not there.

In this day and age, that is not the case. Most work can be contracted out at a lesser cost to the taxpayer and probably have better results as the contractor has a vested interest in providing service. Ever try and fire a civil servant??????

Have you ever wondered why the military contracts out the Cormoront maintenance? Better mainttenance at a lesser cost.

Who does most of the work on the Herc's?

And oooooonnnnnnnn.

Cheers, Don

 

[Albert Ross]

I din't say I agreed with it - I just have no objection *if* it can be made to work. It's just that some people here seem to think they have an automatic right to any work going!

Phil

 

[Blackmac]

Phil: Last post, I do not disagree with the government (s) doing any a/c work if it cannot be done by the private sector at a cheaper rate.

This costing factor is never taken into account. Remember the method used by the PM to purchase a new Challenger.

All the Team Canada trips went automatically to one Air Line, contracted by the PMO and then they charged a fee to all participants and I don't know to this day were the money went.

Besides all that BS, they broke every Transportation regulation as they did not have a brokers license.

As you are also well aware the PMO do exactly what they want, they will consult Treasury Board, but they also appoint the president of the TB.

Get the picture????


Cheers, Don

 

[twitch]

Blackie. Just to keep you on the straight and narrow. Coast Guard doesn't own the aircraft. DFO does.

 

[twinstar_ca]

but they still get paid from the same employer, right twitch!!

 

[leadingedge]

Mac

In a perfect world, it would be great that the private sector got a bigger bite out of maintenace, operational side of Governmental tasks. The difficulties arise when the good old admin factor is worked into the equation. Sure the private sector can do a more cost effective job, lower overhead and not the huge requirement to follow lengthy politically correct admistration process. and definately the tax dolloar goes further. Good business!

What about political patronage, private companies have always paid off thier friends for support work no matter the size an scope. I think the probelm is that there will never be a complete outsourcing to the private sector here in Canada due that we have a socialist style government that wants to protect the civil service first and be able to count on the admin factor built into every service and job.

Under the former conservative government in ottawa there was more going out to private sector than there is today, that is not to say all , but more that under the liberal debacle we have now.

My two cents...

 

[cap]

Interesting discussion, with some very valid points. There's one major problem here though. As mentioned already, we are a people that are used to beng "taken care of" by our governments. The result is that we are, next to Sweden, listed as the "most over-governed nation" in the Free World (this is not my opinion either). Ergo, the points made by Blackmac are all valid from my view, but that's as far as they will go....HERE!. In general terms and with an overall picture in mind, we Canadians get very uneasy very often when "private enterprise" takes over. That feeling was rampant in my youth and has diminished over the years because of the performance of our esteemed political representatives.......but it's still there and when someone talks "free enterprise", we love to point south and say things like " ya, well what about .........?" Sadly, we trust our governments to protect our interests just a "tad" more than "big business" because we think we have control over the governments and can throw them out. It's extremely hard for a Canadian to name anything major, where some governments' "shadow" isn't invloved somewhere. Besides Blackmac, you know that most Canadians don't want to do anything that might copy the US way of doing things because anything American just has to be a bad idea.

 

[Blackmac]

Leadingedge & Cap, you said it very well, I just wonder when people will smarten up.

I notice you are getting to bed a bit earlier Cap.

Cheers, Don


PS: Leadingedge, as an afterthought re government oversite on contracts. Most government contracts that have problems, were poorly written in the first place.
When I was with the government, I and other people in the department managed contracts in excess of 1B.
When the scope of work is well written (what you expect) and the contractor can answer accordingly, there is very seldom any problems.
Should the government be contracting for something new, you can ask for letters of interest and get feedback from any industry and learn from there.

 

[cap]

Blackmac -------- thanks ......and those later hours are a factor of something else I have on the go.

One thing I didn't mention is that "one on one", the government agencies could match or beat "private industry" if it could operate within the same parameters........but it doesn't or can't. Few of the Municipal, Provincial or Federal employees are paid on the same scale as their peers in private industry..........that says nothing about the differences in benefits and expense accounts. The working hours also differ in many cases. This all is classed in business as "overhead" and restrictions, that do not allow government agencies to go "one on one' with private industry. There are few "aviation types" that would not be over-joyed to have the benefits that their peers in government have and the security that goes with. Unfortunately, if I work a week-end it is not classed as overtime and I don't have the choice of either having that on my paycheque or taking 4 days off that I have now earned. Private industry would "choke" at an arrangement like that and could not withstand the resultant overhead that would ensue. Aviation is not unique at all in this regard and if one checks with other parts of private industry, they will find the same feelings echoed even more so.

 

[leadingedge]

Cap, Macster

It's all about greed and protecting jobs! Our federal and Provincial governments (excluding the oil rich nation of Alberta),and it won't be long before OTTAWA try's for the grab!- Traditionally Canadians are a fair peoples who would forgive a little to help support those other Provinces without the means. Between 1998- 2001 I worked very closely with many Federal Canadian departments to assist developing Nations come into compliance with the ICAO SARPS in compliance with Safety oversight Audit requirements. with the end goal of CAT 1. If you guys really want a take on what's happening with greed on a Global Scale, PM me!. I may be able to arrange a breakfast or lunch meeting with my friends from ICAO, Delegate members- we all went to the same fine Canadian Boarding schools. Know any former KGB guys in the diplomatic corps?

PM for futher information

 

[cap]

Leadingedge -------whatever you do. don'y start comparing us to other nations. Using our Canadian ethics, morals and beliefs, most of rest of the world is so corrupt they aren't worth saving. Try travelling the world and not paying $20 USD or a British 10 pound note for things that we take for granted in Canada. The simple act of filing a Flight Plan is "enhanced with speed" when you slide that note under the sheet of paper as you file. If you don't, you may wait up to a week for clearance........and don't leave without it buddy, or you may be met by men with SMG's at the other end. Got a new set of M/R blades stuck at the Customs Brokers perhaps.......reach into your pocket first before you open up your mouth and spout Canadian "values".

I understand fully what you have said and agree, but please use some other analogy because that one wasn't a good choice. Its very hard in other parts of the world to have even a "smidgen" of Canadian values when you are only making $700 CDN per year and you got part of that from selling off your oldest daughter. It costs money to have principles, morals and values.