Happy Thanksgiving

[KCFlyer]

So how was your Thanksgiving?

That post was the internet equivalent of biting my tongue. A bit off topic for the thread. My THanksgiving was okay...my daughter went to her uncles farm with the rest of her family. I spend mine with my dogs. They loved their Thanksgiving dinner...it was a half cup MORE of what they get the other 364 days.

 

[RDU Jetblast]

1st, please show me a post where I stated "UNIONS SUCK" !
2nd, why is it ok for people to come on here and preach pro-union rhetoric, but as soon as someone questions the benefit of having a union, it's blasphemy ?
You've got your opinion and I've got mine, they just difer on the benefits of union that's run by people that are no better than the people running the company your work for ! Hell, if unions are so great, why are the AA mechanics wanting to vote in a "NEW" union, in the middle of a bankruptcy? If unions are so great, why over the last 20 years have jobs, work and wages disappered, the unions "WERE" there during all of this, wtf happened ?

AGAIN ! Please show me where a union has benefitted its "Dues-Payers" from losing wages, benefits and work, during a bankruptcy !

Something wrong with working for Delta ? Ramp and FA's had a vote not too long ago and even with a rule change by the NMB, in favor of the unions, it was decided, by the majority, to keep them out, like it or not !

Cant Argue with you on this. Unions have been corrupted and weakened to irrelevence. However, with cutbacks, employees are being asked to do more for less and I cant help but think unions will regain lost ground. An example would be retailers asking employees to work thanksgiving but shorting on hours to avoid time and a half. Not cool.

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

1st, please show me a post where I stated "UNIONS SUCK" !
2nd, why is it ok for people to come on here and preach pro-union rhetoric, but as soon as someone questions the benefit of having a union, it's blasphemy ?
You've got your opinion and I've got mine, they just difer on the benefits of union that's run by people that are no better than the people running the company your work for ! Hell, if unions are so great, why are the AA mechanics wanting to vote in a "NEW" union, in the middle of a bankruptcy? If unions are so great, why over the last 20 years have jobs, work and wages disappered, the unions "WERE" there during all of this, wtf happened ?

AGAIN ! Please show me where a union has benefitted its "Dues-Payers" from losing wages, benefits and work, during a bankruptcy !

Something wrong with working for Delta ? Ramp and FA's had a vote not too long ago and even with a rule change by the NMB, in favor of the unions, it was decided, by the majority, to keep them out, like it or not !

Well UR correct about the current DL F/A and Ramp non union situation.
But going forward, I'm betting Heavily that the IAM doesn't lose the next Ramp election by a mere 500+ votes !

 

[KCFlyer]

Cant Argue with you on this. Unions have been corrupted and weakened to irrelevence. However, with cutbacks, employees are being asked to do more for less and I cant help but think unions will regain lost ground. An example would be retailers asking employees to work thanksgiving but shorting on hours to avoid time and a half. Not cool.

You may be on to something here. In the words of Joni Mitchell "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got til it's gone". I think this Thanksgiving bullcrap that stores are pulling may be one more straw on the way to breaking that camels back.

Sure there might me some corruption in the union leadership...but it seems that's what happens. I mean, there's plenty of corruption in the exectutive suites. Funny thing, those guys in the corporate carpeted offices are the ONLY ones holding contracts that are actually honored, despite what happens to the company.

I'm not in a union. The last job I had that was unionized was back in 1980 (Teamsters). But I recognize that there are some things that I enjoy that were won by unions....overtime, sick leave, vacation pay, safe working conditions. Oh yes...and fair pay. I'm a member of something that is fast declining with the decline of unions - the middle class. Is that a coincidence?

 

[southwind]

Cant Argue with you on this. Unions have been corrupted and weakened to irrelevence. However, with cutbacks, employees are being asked to do more for less and I cant help but think unions will regain lost ground. An example would be retailers asking employees to work thanksgiving but shorting on hours to avoid time and a half. Not cool.

Maybe one day unions will gain lost ground !

Well UR correct about the current DL F/A and Ramp non union situation.
But going forward, I'm betting Heavily that the IAM doesn't lose the next Ramp election by a mere 500+ votes !

Then, so be it and the majority has spoken, although I foresee more changes, benifitting unions during a vote....................card check anyone?

You may be on to something here. In the words of Joni Mitchell "Don't it always seem to go that you don't know what you got til it's gone". I think this Thanksgiving bullcrap that stores are pulling may be one more straw on the way to breaking that camels back.

Sure there might me some corruption in the union leadership...but it seems that's what happens. I mean, there's plenty of corruption in the exectutive suites. Funny thing, those guys in the corporate carpeted offices are the ONLY ones holding contracts that are actually honored, despite what happens to the company.

I'm not in a union. The last job I had that was unionized was back in 1980 (Teamsters). But I recognize that there are some things that I enjoy that were won by unions....overtime, sick leave, vacation pay, safe working conditions. Oh yes...and fair pay. I'm a member of something that is fast declining with the decline of unions - the middle class. Is that a coincidence?

Sorry but, the middle class started shrinking even "With" Union representation !

 

[KCFlyer]

Sorry but, the middle class started shrinking even "With" Union representation !

Really? Any examples of that? Best I can recall, the "war on unions" started under the Reagan administration. Any examples of declining middle class prior to that?

 

[southwind]

What part of "Even WITH union representation, over the years at various company's and industry's and yes the airlines, job loss, pay-cuts and benefit -cuts have ensued" do you not understand?
And please enlighten everyone as to what a union has done for you, that cannot be inserted into a paper shredder, during bankruptcy ! Has anyone looked at the AA forum lately?

 

[KCFlyer]

What part of "Even WITH union representation, over the years at various company's and industry's and yes the airlines, job loss, pay-cuts and benefit -cuts have ensued" do you not understand?
And please enlighten everyone as to what a union has done for you, that cannot be inserted into a paper shredder, during bankruptcy ! Has anyone looked at the AA forum lately?

Gosh southwind....prior to the "unions are the bane of American civilization" movement starting in 1980, I remember a time when dads went to work and moms stayed home with the kids. They had cars...nice homes....not McMansions by a long shot, but nice, comfortable homes. Many had boats, campers and other "fun" things. They took vacations.

And then they decided that guys were being "overpaid" to load bags on a plane or put bumpers on a car. They were "impediments to profits". Despite the occasional strikes during the 50's and 60's, labor was still viewed as an asset. Now they are just a cost center...and they are the FIRST thing looked at when it comes to cutting costs. And as they cut costs...moms had to start getting back into the workplace in order to make ends meet.

And yes, pay cuts and other losses of benefits have ensued...but this is well into the era of unions being vilified and weakened. As they get weaker, look for some of those cuts to make their way into the non union jobs. I mean...if you're doing the same job as that union guy, what makes you so special that you can make more? Your pay will be cut to enable your company to "remain competitive" with the unionized companies.

Retail is already testing the waters. Last year "black Friday" started at midnight, which meant employees had to be in the store around 10 to get ready. This year they opened at 8 p.m. What will next year bring...opening at noon? And they stagger shifts during the week to avoid paying overtime...even though it being a holiday they SHOULD have been paid double time.

And you're right...I'm not management, so anything I have can be put in a paper shredder during bankruptcy. Only thing I'm pointing out is that it seems like the ONLY contracts that don't ever come close to the paper shredder, even IN bankruptcy, are the contracts to the executives. Just look at the "bonuses" being requested for the Hostess execs.

 

[southwind]

What I'm saying is, in my eyes, the Pesidents of the Teamsters, IAM, AFL-CIO are no better than the Presidents of Hostess, Chevy or AA. They want your money as bad as the company wants your cheap labor and the more members they can recruit, the more money the higher -ups will annoint themselves with and "Their" survival is job one, you come in 2nd !

How much should a bag smasher make or a guy standing on an assembly line, with an air rachet, bolting on the same 6 bolts day after day !

My family goes back in aviation since my grandfather, He, my Father and 2 uncles all worked for EAL. Makes you wonder why the hell I ended up in the same industry, doesn't it ? I've seen the up's and downs of the Airline in particular, my whole life 1 It's like a roller coaster ride, every 7-10 years, your on the top but before you know it, your barreling towards the bottom again ! A lot of it has to do with management and some of it has to do with employees. One of the reasons for EAL's demise, not the only one, was the mechanics and ramp were represented by the same union, so every time the mechanics got a rasie, guess what ? So did the ramp ! I'm not saying that you don't have to bust youe ass working on the ramp, but just what is a fair rate , for someone to loads baggage. Who say's you should be able to raise a family of 4 , working at Burger King ?

Oh and "Back in the Day", you know it and I know it, things were much simpler, everyone didn't have to live in a McMansion, drive an Escalade and eat out every night ! So part of the blame of a husband and wife having to work lies at their own feet, as everyone want's more, more, more !

 

[Dog Wonder]

Some people just don't know how to give thanks.

 

[southwind]

Starting with post #2, in this thread !

 

[Dog Wonder]

Take responsibility for your ownself.

And learn to give thanks.

 

[signals]

1st, please show me a post where I stated "UNIONS SUCK" !
2nd, why is it ok for people to come on here and preach pro-union rhetoric, but as soon as someone questions the benefit of having a union, it's blasphemy ?
You've got your opinion and I've got mine, they just difer on the benefits of union that's run by people that are no better than the people running the company your work for ! Hell, if unions are so great, why are the AA mechanics wanting to vote in a "NEW" union, in the middle of a bankruptcy? If unions are so great, why over the last 20 years have jobs, work and wages disappered, the unions "WERE" there during all of this, wtf happened ?

AGAIN ! Please show me where a union has benefitted its "Dues-Payers" from losing wages, benefits and work, during a bankruptcy !

Something wrong with working for Delta ? Ramp and FA's had a vote not too long ago and even with a rule change by the NMB, in favor of the unions, it was decided, by the majority, to keep them out, like it or not !

You didn't come out and say it straight out, but your words speak volumes. Companies without unions have failed just like unionized shops have. I get frustrated when people blame unions as the sole orchestrator of a company's demise.

During BK, unions and non-unions get reemed equally. A better question to the AA mechanics wanting to change their union in BK is why do CSR and other non-union AA workers want a union during this process.

If you didn't get it, I tend to look at both sides of the equation, meaning both union and non-union. They both serve a benefit in their niche, and you are right we all are entitled to our opinions, but you can't put the ills of society squarely on one factor, because your opinion is based on rhetoric.

 

[signals]

That post was the internet equivalent of biting my tongue. A bit off topic for the thread. My THanksgiving was okay...my daughter went to her uncles farm with the rest of her family. I spend mine with my dogs. They loved their Thanksgiving dinner...it was a half cup MORE of what they get the other 364 days.

Not really since it was off topic from the beginning, but either way Turkey Day is over so now we b!7c# about what we are or aren't thankful for!

 

[Kev3188]

And please enlighten everyone as to what a union has done for you, that cannot be inserted into a paper shredder, during bankruptcy !

I'll take the 1113 process(es) any day over going through BK as an "at will" employee.

...And since that isn't likely to happen to you & I any time soon, I'll take the legally binding agreement over the consistently inconsistent application of the procedures we have now.

How much should a bag smasher make

Good ramp employees/ crew chiefs are worth every f**King nickel we make. Do not pretend you have a clue of what all is involved in working the ramp; especially at a line station.

One of the reasons for EAL's demise, not the only one, was the mechanics and ramp were represented by the same union, so every time the mechanics got a rasie, guess what ? So did the ramp !

Guess what? Your current employer does the exact.same. thing. Quick! Run over the G.O. and tell them to stop this practice before it's too late!

Oh and "Back in the Day", you know it and I know it, things were much simpler, everyone didn't have to live in a McMansion, drive an Escalade and eat out every night ! So part of the blame of a husband and wife having to work lies at their own feet, as everyone want's more, more, more !

...Or downward pressure on wages, which forced both parents into the workforce in many cases...