HEPAC Membership

[Heli Ops]

I know Canadians are patriotic people so thought I would start a poll to see who you think should be allowed to join HEPAC. I know of many Canadians, no longer with Canadian licences who are working in far flung corners of the globe who are keen to join but you have to decide who is allowed to join.

Heli Ops.

 

[skullcap]

Am not here to pick a fight so bear with me.

A good amount of thought should be put into allowing any entity that could be called a "company" to join.

It is very hard to turn away dollars from "associate" members as they are a great way to increase revenue, but look at the magster's math.

Since I live in a world where my tax dollars are being wasted on lapels of car racers, gun registries(in other words corruption). Newspapers and media in general print what is good news(not good in the nice way). Insurance companies dicatate what we can do with our helicopters. Then am extremely sensitive about joining an association that is for Helicopter PILOTS and ENGINEERS but has "companies" as members. As directors in HEPAC how could you not listen when one of your associate members who is not happy with a situation and is threatening to pull their fat account. Not to mention names but have been extremely unhappy with reporting from a certain mag years ago, it seemed that if you had a pulse and were willing to type away some drivel in the heli jargon then right on. I wrote letters displaying my displeasure of the lack of accuracy, diplomecy and general lack of knowledge but went unheeded. If one mag could join why not them all?

If a magazine could join then why not a corporation?

This should be simple "by the people for the people". Key word is people, not just pilots or engineers but anyone in the industry(working in Canada or for a Canadian company as I honestly do not believe that someone living in Spain working in the Gulf for the last 10 years would/should have any say in what is going on in Canada due to fact of lack currency within the country). If the people of the media want to join then great but keep your company out of it.

So now you say "how do we have any clout if there are no big guns on our side"?

By being honest, professional and having the "people" who do the work on our side. Sounds like a union to me but you know that, a union as it was originally disigned to do was a damn good thing and saved a lot of lives(child labor being one of the the big ones) so don't flip out. The hard part is to design an association that has teeth but is not a union. Can be done but takes some time and people have to be behind it. I WILL join Hepac when some of the dust settles, but not if corps, associate members, or the like allowed to join. I don't give a crap about anyone's honorable intentions of a corporation "today" as they can be sold and the new folk may not be as honorable.

Years ago some people took to hunting wolves from the air due to their "overpopulation" as the big game was being depleted. Now I don't want to get into a right wrong thing over it but at the time I thought it was very strange that the fish and wild life were behind this until it was explained to me the the outfitters behind the push to eliminate the wolves and all licences paid the saleries of the fish and wildlife folks. There were many hints of "do this or there will be no hunters since there will be nothing to hunt" that came out of the bullcrap later on.
Now they tag, collar and monitor the wolves and go about it in a rational method, rather than shoot first think later.( the wolves and the helicopter people are happier about it as well)


Bottom line is that with the many complicated relationships today within our industry it is necessary to keep things as "clean" as possible. Since this is the inception of HEPAC then it should be taken slow and carefully as how to start up.

Hepac should also take heart that there are a ton of P's & E's out there who do not post here and would be interested to join. We all need to flap our "gums" more at work about it is all.

Just because you don't have a lot of member now don't sweat it, it will take a lot of time to do the ground work and there are many folks like me who will not put there money where there mouth is until I can 100% say am behind it. One day it will click and you will be inundated with memberships, that should be one of your first goals, "how do we get people onside in an honorable way." Sorry but that how it is, so take your time to set it up, develope some(more) thick skin and be patient for crissake, and whistle once in awhile(BM, go kick a dog, that's your equivalent of whistling am sure). I'll join(promise).

sc

 

[skullcap]

PS I didn't vote as there was no catagory for "anyone working in Canada associated to the helicopter industry or for a Canadian owned and operated helicopter company outside Canada"

 

[Randy_G]

Skullcap brings up some valid points, and some great questions.

I agree that corporations/companies should not be allowed to join. My God, I'm agreeing with him, what's next El Diablo throwing snowballs ?? 😀 However we should not turn down any individual who wants to join. Perhaps HEPAC could clarify on who is eligible to join, and what each type of membership is about.

The way I envision the assoc. (I'm not a member, yet) all full members can vote, stand for the board, are involved in how the association is run, etc. Associate members are allowed to come to the meetings, all of the parties, but have absolutely no say in the actual operation of the association, or who goes on the board. We could offer associate memberships to those ex-pats living abroad who wish to be part of the association. They would not have any say in the running of the assoc. but I don't see why they couldn't be part of it.

As directors in HEPAC how could you not listen when one of your associate members who is not happy with a situation and is threatening to pull their fat account.

To me, any sponsor would need to have a contract to protect not only the assoc., but the sponsor as well. If HEPAC uses my example, anyone who has an associate membership has no say in the running of the operation. If a sponsor disagrees with the direction of the association, they will be free to pull out after the contract has finished, or they may buy-out the remaining time of the contract. Protecting the assoc. and giving HEPAC time to find another sponsor.

Cheers

 

[Heli Ops]

Skullcap - Obviously you have some serious issues with us helicopter magazines and dont want us as part of your association, thats fine - happy to leave you and the team to develop it as you see fit without our input, advice or ideas.

Have been helping Don to get this thing pushing forward for some time by generating discusssions but wont help where we arent wanted.

Good luck with HEPAC.

Heli Ops

 

[Randy_G]

Ned, in my mind you (and Mike for that matter) are more than welcome in any association that I am involved with. Both you and Mike have gone the extra distance to understand what you write about. As objective observers, you guys bring much to the table. You need not have to prove to anyone that you wish to help the industry.

Cheers

 

[Heli Ops]

Randy - I have nothing to prove to anyone, I have been involved in this industry, one way or another since I was 15 and am now 37. That includes ground crew, got my heli PPL many years ago but let it lapse, shooter, loader driver, even helped out for two years in management in a company so I have a good understanding of this industry and it gets added to on a daily basis with every operator we visit.

Good luck with HEPAC and hope it gains momentum.

Heli Ops B)

 

[Over-Talk]

H-ops, no disrespect intended, but open your eyes. The votes are in favour of your organisation joining !!
Don't run away just because of one person's opinion. This is a forum, not a dictatorship.
Skullcap has some good points. But will the evil organisations he speaks of even want to join HEPAC ?? Will those organisations qualify for membership ?? It doesn't sound like they are trying to improve the Association or the industry by acting heavy-handed as he speculates.

Hang around, HEPAC (or any other Association like it) needs support from groups like you and Vertical..........the votes speak for themselves.

 

[Blackmac]

Heli-Ops & Vertical, As far as I am concerned you are both WELCOME as associate members and will no doubt provide constructive opinion of HEPAC to the industry as long as it is vetted by HEPAC.

Reiteraiting what I said on another thread was as such; HEPAC bylaws indicated what we were trying to accomplish and now we are discussing items on an open forum when in actual fact, it should be discussed and voted on by the membership, and discussed by MEMBERS in a closed forum.

When you guys get enough GUTS to spend the $200.00 and join the assoc., maybe, just maybe, you will see some results that you are dreaming of.

You have been handed a chance to dream, so what are you waiting for.

Cheers Don

 

[MagSeal]

still not budging on the $200 I see.....

I guess when the milk is a couple days away from spoiling you've got a choice, storewide sale, or let it go to waste. I guess though, it's not a good comparison, as you would at least still know what you're buying with the milk....

 

[Elvis]

Remember Monty Hall on "lets make a deal" for what's behind curtain # 2 can be Your's only for $200.00

:elvis: :elvis: :elvis:

 

[skullcap]

Blackmac;

Does this mean that "companies" are allowed to become associate members?

Heli Ops;

Don't go off all upset. I didn't mention your name or anyone else's name or mag did I? I was stating an opinion, one which has nothing to gain/lose or representative of anything other than by being a potential member(pilot/Canadian) in an Canadian Pilot's association. If you don't agree with mine, this is what I expected, but since you started the poll thought you may be interested in feedback. Do you think that there would not be any disadvantages brought to the associations because of companies joining an association. If so what can/could be done to prevent them, maybe there are methods that would allow "companies" to join with ZERO voice, if so then great, but then what would be the advantage of the "company" joining the association. Surely there are better tax write offs. As for being a member individually then it seems that everyone is all for it, me too as long as you are working in Canada or for a Canadian company.

I think everyone appreciates your help and advice and doubt if it would be turned away even if you were not an associate member.

There are many financial and marketing benifits for allowing "associate" members and everyone can see them but that is not what concerns me, the disadvantages that come to my mind that have me concerned. Would you not be worried that the companies that advertise in your magazine may not be too happy that you are a member of an association that wants to change how they do business?

Some one mentioned that we should not worry about what the association could do for us but what we could do for the association, nice but that is only half of what people should be thinking. This association is starting late in life and we need to ensure that it is done right and maintained to the highest standards. In other words the association works for the people who it has allegiance to and the people must reciprocate, but the action/reaction between the two must be maintained with the thought process that the association must not be compromised by any form or corruption however real it is or not.

In closing, since you are not based in Canada and don't think you are Canadian why would you want to join an association for p's & e's here?

skulkcap

PS
I have not one concern that this association would work and its benefits once going, but it's kind of like a locomotive in an round house, no matter how good that engine is, it won't matter if it is put on the wrong track.

BM-if you don't like this form of info sharing, well that's just too bad, it doesn't take 200 bucks to have guts.

 

[Heli Ops]

Skullcap - I will respond where I can. Yes I am not based in Canada, actually live on the waterfront here in Auckland, New Zealand, about as far away as you can get. Why would I want to help the Canadian industry, very simple. My magazine covers the helicopter industry worldwide, I get to visit and meet people from all areas of the industry and I will state for the record that some of the best times I have had have been in Canada. Going heli logging with Black Tusk was an eye opening experience for me and after spending some time chatting with the guys there, and elsewhere, I came to realise that there was no association as such that would help them for any of their causes.

He talked about HAC and what a waste of time that is unless you are an owner or an operator and even then everyone I spoke to didnt really have a decent word to say about it. When I posed the idea about everyone getting together and forming an association the majority said they the industry was so fragmented in Canada, because of the vast distances etc, that they doubted anyone could bring them all together.

Being a member of an association is very similar to what we do with the magazine. We bring people together through a medium, in this case the magazine. We disseminate information that can help, assist or change the way people do buisness. My opinion is an association is the same way, from helping a low time student find ways into their first paying job to giving an engineer some new way of fixing his main rotor transmission. When the idea of an association was first bought up I thought it was great, the exchange of ideas was good to see, BUT, and no offence to Blackmac here as he has taken the bull by the horns and got it up and running, the back and forth insults and personal attacks have caused HEPAC more harm than good. I have seen the same sort of Shite happen in Australia with their association and also here in NZ. A lot of the countries I have visited they dont have a shits show in hell of ever getting a group of people together to help better their conditions, terms of employment or just to have a major gathering and shoot the ####.

You all have the chance here to start something that will leave a legacy for generations of pilots to come. It may not be the be all and end all of associations but its a good start but the B/S needs to stop now and every effort made to increase the momentum. Again with no offence intended to Blackmac I dont think he is the right person to try and provide feedback to those asking questions. You need someone like Biggles or whoever the other director is to answer the queries without any sort of antagonistic comment, that will encourage the person to part with their membership fee, not go away feeling like he has just been trodden all over. Blackmac you are to be commended for your initiative in getting the association going and in 100 years time you can be assured that every new member will know that it was Don that got the ball rolling.

My goal, through the magazine is to try and help the industry and if that involves joining HEPAC as an associate or corporate member so that my $200 or whatever it will helps the association move forward then it is money well spent. if I can put an advertisement in the magazine for a membership drive then great, but its all about spreading the word and bringing people together. Hell I sound like a bible basher

Now onto the subject about companies as members. Its very very easy, they join but dont have voting rights. When I was working with the Heli Assn of Australia some years ago I bought in 18 corporate members who each paid around $1000 AUD, and all they got out of it was that they were proud sponsors of the HAA and members would support them whenever they could. There is no reason you couldnt do the same there. Look at the companies in your backyard, Bell Helicopter, ACRO, Pratt & Whitney, Eurocopter, HSI, plus many many more. Then there are all local companies such as hospitals or providers of services who could also be targeted. The list is endless and you would be surprised, I doubt any of them would be concerned that they dont have voting rights. I might even have the old letter I used to get the Aussie ones to join that you could use. There are a lot of companies out there that would be proud to support the helicopter industry. HEPAC is a good cause. In my opinion you would have the following catergories of membership:

Professional Member (Pilots) Voting Rights
Professional Member (Engineer) Voting Rights
Student Member (Pilot) Voting Rights
Student Member (Apprentice Engineer) Voting Rights
Associate Member (Individual) No Voting Rights
Affiliate Member - No Voting Rights
Corporate Member - No Voting Rights

This way you can welcome all areas of the industry and non industry participation. Remember you might have companies like Agusta in the US and Italy that see Canada as a good prospect for sales and what better way to show the industry that you support their industry by being a corporate member.

Now companies, this is also relatively easy. I will use Alpine Helicopters as an example. Alpine might think that the goals and programs run by HEPAC are benefitting them greatly because of increased productivitiy, increased safety etc, so therefore they decide to come onboard the association as a corporate member as it shows they are supporting the HEPAC ideals. They dont get voting rights and cant change the way HEPAC does business but they can show that they are supporting those that make their business what it is, the pilots and engineers.

Anyway thats just some of my feedback. Take it for what its worth. There are a lot of people around the world that have connections to the Canadian industry and would love to support you, dont exclude them.

Heli Ops

 

[skullcap]

You make it sound as though we would be snubbing our noses, not true just trying to be true to the name.

There is a multitude of benefits, of which you have highlighted, thank you for the kind words of our industry and country. Be great if all those folks would start sending money and all, I must be simple minded to think "companies" wouldn't be getting there money's worth. But hey, we spent anywhere from 1.2 - 12 million cnd for the opportunity to put "Canada" on J Villinueave's racing uniform so why not send some moola to HEPAC? Always get noivous when power and money start entering into decision making of something that is supposed to support individuals(you know the u word) but have been accused of being naive once.

I guess that is what the directors and members have to weigh.

Your example of Alpine mentioned that there would be an increase in productivity, how so? Because they would pay higher saleries, or have to hire more people to cover the extra time off that the association won for the employees? Because the added benefits they would be paying to cover employees needs. You'd think with all that whistling going on there that folks are already pretty he ho happy now.



Hmmm, not so sure that many companies would be jumping to support it, maybe, but in my somewhat darkened opinion they'd be more inclined to plant one of maggies moles within to destroy the evil doing association. Maybe Mags can suppy hepac with the tried and true mole detector(a spin off the donut buddy me thinks). He could smuggle it in under his t shirt, ha!


HONK

 

[Heli Ops]

Skullcap - Not trying to say you are not staying true to the name, just saying that as long as the basis of the association, this being the Pilots and Engineers, are Canadian based then why not open the other memberships, these being the non voting ones, to all that want to support the association.

With regards to those wanting to spend money to support the association, there is only one way to find out, and thats to ask. You dont get if you dont ask do you.

The point of the Alpine post was in reference to maybe HEPAC runs a safety course for the industry as part of what they do. Say for example a wire strike prevention course. Well maybe Alpine had problems over the past years with wire strikes, well after the course pilots are more aware of working in the wire environment and Alpine think thats great. See my point. This is only one example and probably a bad one but hoepfully you get the gist. Not everything that an association does is to piss the operator off, if they are show how it benefits them then in most cases they will support it.

Everything depends on the delivery of the message.

Heli Ops