Hepac

[skullcap]

Just got home, been in the line all night, doesn't seem to be moving and was the only one there, guess was in the wrong line up for the HA/DD(Hooter's Association/DD).

Made it through the hortons line ok though, even gave me a cup for a free donut!

sc

 

[helicopper]

w/apologies, don... as you are aware, the powers that be have been busy tryin' to teach this dumb irishman how to fly by the numbers (i found colouring by numbers more my speed!) ... it would appear you could use a little support in your bid to improve the canadian helo industry (despite your retirement from same.)

while i appreciate that you've probably got shoes that are older than a large percentage of the participants within this forum ... AND you've undoubtedly forgotten more about the flying biz than this scribbler will ever know, this written forum does NOT lend itself well to an accurate perception of an individual's words/intent... in addition, your inclination to call a spade a "foggin shovel" apparently has the tendency to offend on occasion <_<

that is naturally problematic in this enlightened age of political correctness...

despite the sudbury table manners (being from sulphur city, i can say that!), you have singlehandedly brought this association issue to the forefront and obviously continue to generate precisely the kind of dialogue that this business requires today...

your efforts within a few short months have been significant indeed...

On the 100th anniversary of powered flight, (the 17th day of December, 2003)
the Helicopter Engineers and Pilots Association, Canada (HEPAC) received its
Charter to form a non-profit organization seeking to improve the profession
of helicopter engineers and pilots as well as the Canadian helicopter
industry as a whole.

We will do so through industry lobbying, the promotion of safety research
and advancements and seeking improvements in pilot, engineering, employer
and customer/client relations.

What do we represent? PROFESSIONALISM.

Promotion of HEPAC as a unified voice for Engineers & Pilots.
Recognition and acceptance of differing perspectives & needs.
Organization of qualified membership.
Fairness in the workplace.
Ensuring minimal operational standards are exceeded in practice.
Succession planning for tomorrow.
Strategic resource for membership.
Insurance industry liaison for both membership and aircraft risks.
Open & ongoing communication.
New ideas think-tank.
Accountability for the quality of our work.
Leadership.
Identification of industry needs.
Solutions that are timely and equitable.
Mentorship programs development & support.


i am confident that no one within this industry can possibly take issue with any of the ideals/intent expressed above...

both this ongoing discussion and development of a professional association is LONG overdue...

you've planted the seed... hopefully some younger folk will now rise to the challenge ahead of this organization...

i thank you sincerely for your efforts to date.


mulligan
hepac2

the only time you fail is when you don't try to succeed

 

[Sisyphus]

It was sad to witness the angry words re HEPAC. I think HEPAC is a good idea and I hope it persists. Membership may take some time to grow but it eventually will. There are some serious issues that need to be addressed regarding the working conditions of pilots and engineers.
I seems as though some recent posts have been deleted but I sincerely think that Blackmac was baited by other posters. He is trying to do a good thing and I hope we can all get behind HEPAC.

 

[reddog]

I think Blackmac has effectively scuttled the HEPAC ship. His intentions were excellent but he was too easily provoked to be an effective salesman for the association. The Top Dog of the association is going to have to be a master diplomat to be able to navigate through all the obstacles and naysayers to achieve the goal of a professional body to represent us.

Helicopper, what about you? You obviously have the gift of the gab and support the cause.

 

[helicopper]

i appreciate the thought reddog... as you perceive, i do indeed STRONGLY support the cause and recognize that a little bit of irish blarney can produce a desired effect on occasion...

however, at some point you must be able to support the blarney with experience, which is where i personally fall considerably short of what we require for the head of HEPAC... my flying background is both limited (1500+ hrs) as well as "pigeon-holed" within a somewhat narrow, law enforcement niche...

when don reached out for a token director for the purposes of this not-for-profit organization/charter/association, i readily accepted the position to enable him to officially create HEPAC on 17DEC03... don's extremely enthusiastic INTENT (at that time... and remains to be to my knowledge) was to commence recruitment with a mind to setting a date for a first meeting at which point the MEMBERSHIP will elect its chosen representatives/directors... and don will ultimately take considerable satisfaction in his participation in some capacity from which HIS considerable experience will benefit HEPAC best.

given our limited audience to date (obviously HEPAC will require a broader audience base than caaviation alone can provide... with all due respect/thanks to kyle for his considerable support to date) and admittedly limited time (certainly on MY part at the present time)... our initial recruitment efforts are in need of assistance/ideas... and, quite frankly, advertising $$.

at this point in time, i agree with phil's input above... HEPAC would obviously fare significantly better by having 500 members signed up at $50/head as opposed to an extremely limited group at $200/head!!... i would support this idea for the purposes of getting the word out initially... we can address increased membership dues once we accomplish a membership!!

as i stated on an earlier forum, i would be pleased to play a continued role in HEPAC more in tune with my experiences to date... for example, in the police world , we would never send a rookie out on his own in a cruiser within his/her first 6 months on the job... i would love to work with tc with a mind to developing a mentorship program in conjunction with operators who recognize the need for future succession planning as well as ongoing specialized training which would see our industry's shiny, new 100 hr wonders teamed up with the old salts for their first season... have the insurance folk on board/contributing... win-win for all concerned.

bottom line... there are HUNDREDS of good ideas out there (which will benefit ALL aspects of this industry)... but until we get together, these ideas will simply remain to be bantered about over a few cold ones at the end of a long day... and never take wing... and it is all of our responsibility (as benefactors of this industry) to ensure that does NOT happen.

cheers...

mulligan
hepac2

 

[Charles W.]

Good on you Helicopper :

I only wish that I could have some input here, but alas I also suffer from the inability to be " politically correct " must be my background and experience.....where I have been working being "politically correct " will only get an Uzi rammed up your ass.....but I am wandering again....

I have the advantage of not needing knee pads and show proof that I will "submit " to those who think that warm touchy feeling words will solve all problems. Because I like Don no longer have to impress anyone to get ahead.

I sincerely hope that this organization gets up and is sucessful and am planning on being a member should it do so.

When Biggsie gets back home I think I shall have a chat with her.

All the best Don and these guys got off easy....I would not have been so poilte.

Chuck

 

[helicopper]

reverend charlie whiskey... "politically correct" or not, HEPAC will ALWAYS have room for a member who calls a spade "a foggin' shovel"... that's how work gets done!

it is the likes of the mcdougalls and ellsworths that have made this industry the considerable success it is today!

send us your fifty bones... and don't forget to include your ideas and what role you may be in a position to assume... the fact that you're "bullet-proof" enhances your capabilities for sure!!

 

[Albert Ross]

If it's any help, I have a little time to contribute, and some experience at running this sort of thing, meetings, minutes, etc. Obviously with such a large country it will be difficult to get people together but not impossible. I think the concept is good, the name also (and the initials), and all we need is a committee, a bank account, a legal person, and accountant, all as honorary as possible, of course, but at some stage you will have to spend money. If you can form it as a charity, so much the better, but I am more familiar with those laws in UK.

I missed out on all the arguments and stuff, but wouldn't comment anyway, but kudos to blackmac for getting the ball rolling.

I think $50 per year is a more reasonable price, because you need members, and you simply ain't going to get them at $200. Once you have a critical mass, you can start looking at member benefits, such as health insurance, dental, life insurance and other stuff, which is also what it should be doing as well as arguing with employers. I have always had a bee in my bonnet about getting qualifications recognised, and this is also something that colleges could be approached about.

Of course, it should foster professionalism and all that other good stuff as well.

Would appreciate any constructive comments

Phil

 

[Nomex]

Phil - volunteers are a scarce commodity - your post makes great sense and I would be willing to support such an approach, since the confrontational style which is usually associated with the typical "union", will not work for the rotary wing types. Start modestly and earn respect from members and employers alike would be a fresh approach.

If an early goal can be to introduce HAC members (companies) to the goals of HEPAC and both have an understanding where each sits within the rotary world, rather than individual pilots/engineers first pushing an "association" at their workplace, I would hope that management concerns may not be as negative (maybe some wishful thinking in there, but at least management should appreciate a civilized approach from a confrontational one and react accordingly).

 

[Albert Ross]

I think a lot of people are missing the point - after all, this was exactly how HAI started, and look at them now!

The real issue, as I see it, and having lurked on this discussion for some time, is that all the companies have representation (and there is an ower's club, no matter how bad they are), but pilots do not. And it's not a voice that's needed necessarily, but recognition of their existence, so that when legislation is put through allowing 42 and even 60 days on duty with no days off, who benefits from that? You could be forgiven for thinking that Transport have an investment in some of the companies around, with what they get up to. And don't come up with the old bromide "Summer's the only time we have to earn any money" - I hear that bleat every year. After 20 days on tour, I want to go home, and the guys who backed into trees and clipped rotor blades last year through chronic fatigue will no doubt agree. That is only one example, and respect for your decisions is another one - why is it that the average customer believes a fork lift driver when he says he can only take 50 items on his machine, yet they tell us how to do our job? We need to make our point more forcibly, and an association, with experts on the board that customers can consult instead of the "consultants" that are currently available, would be a darned good start. We carry a lot of responsibility, and have to sit our final exams every year - we should have recognition for it!

Which leads me to another benefit - being able to talk to the insurance guys and inject some common sense with reference to low time pilots. 2000 hours to fly in the N Alberta oil patch? Give me a break! Also, group discounts and concessions, ete etc. I don't see this as a union at all, and my cheque (for $200) is ready for the post.

Phil

 

[Charles W.]

........................................................

Reverend Chas W.

 

[skullcap]

Albatross;

who elso is gonna pay for all this? Why did it start?

I just posted in "what would you do" please read.

You guys hearts are in the right spot but in my opinion going the wrong direction. Stop what is going on with the forging of logbooks, the overbilling which allows operators to get a lower upfront dollar all the while putting in for more hours than flying. This is a criminal activity and for those who don't think so than what do you suggest the other operators do about it.

charles, get your bitterness going the right way, tc is only the enemy if we don't get off our asses and make them go after these unsrupulous operators. Between doing seismic bag moves by the job and charging for so many dill move an hour while on drilling, people are turning themselves into cheating whores.

I have told more than one customer who asked me for a quote per job that armed with a calculator I could charge them per sunspot but it is all based on so much per hour!

Why are rates low because we would do this even if we weren't paid, but the frigging almighty dollar is getting to be more of a stressor than having fun with the job. The gov't in my opinion let us down by allowing any operator to willy nilly sell their goods for what ever they want whenever they want. Time to take back our fair share and put the operators who don't have to make money on the choppiing block, pretty hard to compete with an operator who sells a B2(new) for 1000 per hour. The operator doesn't give a crap about the local economy as long as he can get some return and lease his own companies more aircraft. See what happens in 5 years, he will be gone with the moola. Why are letting this happen.

Going on about fatigue and hours is bs. Was not an issue years ago, you are tired you don't fly. Operators did there best to supply the crews, go to the root of the problem. Rates aren't goingup because there are cheats and thiefs bringing them down and the rest of us trying to keep our heads above water. Yeah you can guess what happens when you are barely making payments and pilots want more and engineers want more(and maybe rightfully so) you have a fit. Is this the crews fault? Not unless their brothers and sisters are helpiing these companies who forge books and overbill customers, while you say you would never do so.

Charles you say you have nothing to prove then quit poking people with a sharp stick who are trying to work things out, I got nothing to prove either but will continue to prove that I am a person doing the right thing and giving respect to others, reaping what I sow. If you sow lemon seeds you get lemons.

Take no disrespect from my words, take positive action to help get rid of these sobs who are in fact lining their own nests and doing so in a dishonorable method.Figgure out a way to do this we ALL CAN work together to do this. This is a common enemy, who in their right mind would think what these people are doing is ok. Get some facts people from coleagues by whatever means and send the info to TC. I don't want regulation yet but unless we stop the fraud and falsifiing logbooks then regulation is where we will be.

We had none of this bs years ago when you had a base somewhere you had a strong viable business that no operator could move into unless there was proof that there was enough business for them.

Am sick and tired of pilot friends calling and telling me how so and so on a job beside another operator was billing 6 hours a day watching some 206's fly 6's each but billing the customer 3's because that was what the bid was. Are you wanting to get in that 206, not me.

You pilots and engineers out there who are doing this are no better then the scum you work for by doing this. And that is what you are too is scum, I don't care if it is you first job, but it might be your last. You don't like those words, repeat them to your boss or friends or even better TC. This is Canada, you don't have to break the law to earn a paycheck. :angry:

sc

I need a beer.

 

[MagSeal]

after that, you might want a 6 pack at least.

 

[skullcap]

At 666 members, I guess the beast is coming out.

 

[Charles W.]

Skullcap:

I wish there was some way to convince you that you are way, way off base in your assesement of my motivations.

I am 100% in agreement with the frustration you are trying to communicate, but unfortunately there have always been operators that should be put in jail.

Damn it man both you and I are on the same side, we just have not been able to express our frustrations in person.

All I can say is that unless. "WE" are you listening "WE" find some way to join together in a cohesive group we ( well not me because f.ck it I'm finished with all this B.S. ) will forever be cut out of the herd individually and sodomized by the very operators you are describing.

I am all for this organization only because I really believe it will benefit everyone...what is there to lose...$50.00 really is not all that much.

And please, please, please understand this...

My problems with TC have zero to do with this subject, nor is it with non conformance to any regulation rule or law.

It was because a couple of maggots in TC Pacific Region thought that they could deny me what every citizen of this country is guaranteed by law. due process.

Period....

Sadly I will in all likelyhood never get anywhere with this because the CYA attitude goes right to the top in TC.....

Anyhow I like Don will now bow out and you all can do what ever you wish with your careers, mine was quite sucessful up until three years ago.

In closing if you don't like my attitude and the fact that I would not be sodomized by a couple of TC parasites so be it.


What a way to leave aviation.............................................being lectured to by people who haven't the faintest idea of why I am so frustrated.

All the best, I just hope you don't some day find yourself in the same position.

Chuck Ellsworth