I fly turnkey seismic all the time, and I have NEVER fudged the numbers to make the production work out... I do my job to the best of my abilities with Safety being my first concern, production comes second. I have never had an unhappy client and my production numbers always work out fine if the job was bid correctly. Bags per hour has more to do with how the job is co-ordinated than how the pilot flies unless he is completely green at production long line work. And yes on certain jobs, depending on the conditions and details, a hu500 and a B2 astar could have very similar cost per channel with a skilled driver on the stick. The 500 however would fly twice as many hours to do the same job, when both aircraft pay the pilot the same hourly rate, which one would you rather fly? <_<
What Would You Do…
- Thread starter skidsup
- Start date
JB;
So you have never heard of this problem and am blowing smoke? I have been on both ends of the stick so to speak and likewise have not fudged any books, doesn't mean it isn't happening. It is and you know it. Try to take the I out out what am saying and look around to what others are doing. I KNOW pilots whom have been told that they MUST have the numbers in the contract and that is all there is to it. So are they not experienced, some are and some weren't, does it make a difference to not record time in a logbook because you can't longline as fast as the next guy?
Bidding so many holes per hour on is ok too, as long as you can do the numbers, what if the winds are higher than normal or hotter than anticipated and can't do the numbers and you get skidded never to return the that customer. Small industry to be bballed in and because of a guarentee made by someone in an office. It happened and will happen again, maybe to you. Drill companies are taking advantage of the skilled drivers and the lame management of these companies and are able to pick and choose who they want and heaven help a new guy who has a bad tour, ie wind and weather against him. Holes per hour is just more ammo for them to be able to say "No this guy is OUT". You can argue that they may get rid of the pilot anyway as they can tell when production is off but if the pilot is working hard and being diplomatic have never seen them skid a pilot but as mentioned, holes per hour is their way out and to a spagetti backboned manager works like a charm.
What about the company that issued a memo to the point of whoever over bill the most will get bonuses, the pilot who won almost doubled his flight time with billed time, and we're not talking unused mins here or contact hours. That ok?
As with 90% of what goes on in this business everyone is not a bad guy but it only takes a few bad apples(in this case companies as well) to ruin the bunch.
sc
So you have never heard of this problem and am blowing smoke? I have been on both ends of the stick so to speak and likewise have not fudged any books, doesn't mean it isn't happening. It is and you know it. Try to take the I out out what am saying and look around to what others are doing. I KNOW pilots whom have been told that they MUST have the numbers in the contract and that is all there is to it. So are they not experienced, some are and some weren't, does it make a difference to not record time in a logbook because you can't longline as fast as the next guy?
Bidding so many holes per hour on is ok too, as long as you can do the numbers, what if the winds are higher than normal or hotter than anticipated and can't do the numbers and you get skidded never to return the that customer. Small industry to be bballed in and because of a guarentee made by someone in an office. It happened and will happen again, maybe to you. Drill companies are taking advantage of the skilled drivers and the lame management of these companies and are able to pick and choose who they want and heaven help a new guy who has a bad tour, ie wind and weather against him. Holes per hour is just more ammo for them to be able to say "No this guy is OUT". You can argue that they may get rid of the pilot anyway as they can tell when production is off but if the pilot is working hard and being diplomatic have never seen them skid a pilot but as mentioned, holes per hour is their way out and to a spagetti backboned manager works like a charm.
What about the company that issued a memo to the point of whoever over bill the most will get bonuses, the pilot who won almost doubled his flight time with billed time, and we're not talking unused mins here or contact hours. That ok?
As with 90% of what goes on in this business everyone is not a bad guy but it only takes a few bad apples(in this case companies as well) to ruin the bunch.
sc
Good call Skullcap,
Sounds like you know your stuff. Yes there are companies out there that promote overbilling to make up for under bidding. From a management standpoint it is rampant. Especially in Alberta. Pilots are encouraged to beef up thier crew moves and specials in order to cover thier short comings on the bags. Honest companies like yours suffer because you cant match a 40% difference in the bid. No wonder certain people have such a strong hold on the industry when on paper they look like a genius. Its dishonest, its wrong, its unproffesional but unfortunatly it business. Im not to sure about a solution. Maybe to name names. Im sure all those in the siesmic game already know who the culprits are. So how do you make it better. Anyone???
Sounds like you know your stuff. Yes there are companies out there that promote overbilling to make up for under bidding. From a management standpoint it is rampant. Especially in Alberta. Pilots are encouraged to beef up thier crew moves and specials in order to cover thier short comings on the bags. Honest companies like yours suffer because you cant match a 40% difference in the bid. No wonder certain people have such a strong hold on the industry when on paper they look like a genius. Its dishonest, its wrong, its unproffesional but unfortunatly it business. Im not to sure about a solution. Maybe to name names. Im sure all those in the siesmic game already know who the culprits are. So how do you make it better. Anyone???
I'm sure that number fudging happens all the time, I was just saying that I don't do it. I can only speak for myself. I agree completely that it would suck to roll onto a job where you have to compete with the last guys imagination and creative penwork. As for the overbilling, anyone who has the conscience to bill twice what they actually fly, has missed their true calling... He should have been a lawyer or a banker. :down: If I wasn't so addicted to flying, I would just give up on this industry and go work at Tim Horton's... Mmmmmmm, coffee and donuts. 
Let me just clarify this though, I do bill a .1 for starts so if I only flew an hour all day and had to start the damn thing 10 times, I guess I would bill twice what I flew. (2h. flight time 1h. airtime) But man my thumb would be sore from all those starts... :wacko:
First off, it is "seismic".
Secondly, there are many reputable Alberta seismic companies that have been around longer than most of us have had licenses'.
Thirdly, the "new" Alberta companies are all from back EAST!
Secondly, there are many reputable Alberta seismic companies that have been around longer than most of us have had licenses'.
Thirdly, the "new" Alberta companies are all from back EAST!
Some companies are upfront that each flight will be billed as a minimum of .2, as long as they publish it as so and the customer is informed then so be it. As far as adding a .1 per start, do you then charge 4.4 hours for 4 hours of flying and 4 starts? If so dude, you are costing the customer .4 hours extra at 1500 per hour is 450 dollars of flying they aren't getting this is how a fella could follow a B2 with a B model, how so? I fly the B model and do the extra flying it takes to compete the job and bill accordingly, you bill the extra non flown hours and voila the dollars are the same. But what probably is happening is that your company is able to reduce their rate by 150 per hour and still make the 1500 per hour, to get the job from me and now do you see my point yet? It becomes a dogs breakfest, there should not be any question as to how a helicopter is billed on most jobs. Extenuating circumstances such as working in the arctic and not shutting down in the field as a safety margine is an exampe, it is not fair that the customer wants the aircraft to be running all the time and not be charged for it, thus it is written in the contract that running time is to be billed. It is wrong to bill extra unless there is a paper trail to follow.
phew
sc
phew
sc
Ya VR it is "seismic" but have done a ton of production ll work and not had these issues, why should siesmic have their own rules? soon it will be that we will be asked to provide the bags and crews as well for the same price, they don't want to pay extra now for the nav equipment and bagrunners. No wonder some people have got out of it, the only way stay ahead is to be a better crook it seems.
Maybe TC should park their red 206 and send the others folks(CTA) into the offices and begin snooping around that way. Most operators are running a good show as far as equipment and gear, this is not the big issue, it is the billing and logbook fraud.
sc
Maybe TC should park their red 206 and send the others folks(CTA) into the offices and begin snooping around that way. Most operators are running a good show as far as equipment and gear, this is not the big issue, it is the billing and logbook fraud.
sc
Ya dude, I do bill a .1 per start and yes it is in the company tarriff for any customer to see. I would be surprised if most companies out there didn't charge something for start cycles.
I guess i am one of these people you are refering to as a criminal or "as2H99es" as you would say scullcap as i fly turnkey seismic for a living. You are painting all of us as some pretty lowly people. Are you saying that all of us are fudging the books and over billing the customer?Is it maybe that you couldn't cut the cake as a production pilot and you want to bad mouth the rest that could?skullcap said:
I think there is a difference between .1 as a minimum time and adding .1 to each flight to cover starts. News to me if people add .1 to every flight to cover start. As mentioned before that some operators charge a minimum of .2 for a flight. I can see that if a person does a lot of short flights such as heli skiing or hopping from well site to well site, but to arbritarily add .1 to each flight seems odd, but is making sense to me more and more, as how and why my competition does their billing. Pretty easy to justify a low hourly rate when you add 10% to every flight.
Jet A;
No, as posted, I pointed out that 90% are ok and that it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch.
Why do you think it is necessary to attack me personnally? Have flown much seismic and will again. Love working with the crews and don't have any problems with flying the job. Getting the job is the hardest part nowdays, can you move 36 bags an hour with a 206 near Grand Cache, I can't, I know a B2 driver who watched 2 206s moving 12-15 per hour each, yet the customer got billed for 36, go figure.
My only problem is that there are too many people committing fraud. You never mentioned whether you have ever heard the problem mentioned, have you? Am trying to bring up the fact the there is other issues involved with how pilots and engineers are paid and treated, if there is not a level playing field with legal methods of billing and logging hours being enforced then chaos will be a normal way of life and YOU will have no one to blame but yourself. I am NOT going to get into personnal issues as that is not the point to my beef. Capiche?
sc
No, as posted, I pointed out that 90% are ok and that it only takes a few bad apples to ruin the bunch.
Why do you think it is necessary to attack me personnally? Have flown much seismic and will again. Love working with the crews and don't have any problems with flying the job. Getting the job is the hardest part nowdays, can you move 36 bags an hour with a 206 near Grand Cache, I can't, I know a B2 driver who watched 2 206s moving 12-15 per hour each, yet the customer got billed for 36, go figure.
My only problem is that there are too many people committing fraud. You never mentioned whether you have ever heard the problem mentioned, have you? Am trying to bring up the fact the there is other issues involved with how pilots and engineers are paid and treated, if there is not a level playing field with legal methods of billing and logging hours being enforced then chaos will be a normal way of life and YOU will have no one to blame but yourself. I am NOT going to get into personnal issues as that is not the point to my beef. Capiche?
sc
I agree totally with Skullcap, turnkey seismic has turned into a suckers game and I for one no longer provide turnkey bids, because when I was bidding TK I was doing so honestly, by this I mean a fair number of Bags per hour, and guess what I was getting my ass kicked by as much as 40% and not winning the job, but I have learned the other guys do and will drop the ball and guess who the customer calls, and we keep them because we offer Great People and Great Service and the jobs get flown in a realistic ammount of time for a fair price without having to cook the books....
- Thread Starter
- #44
Well I can see that I am not the only one who has issues with non-rev flying and not getting paid for it. Thank you all for your comments, you raised some interesting points about billing and the business side of this industry. I have to agree with those of you who know that our industry is in need of some serious cleaning up. I think re-regulation might be a good thing to bring the standards for rates and terms and such back above board.
As for my case, I am pleased to say that the company decided it would be fair to pay me for the non-rev flying on this job because there was so much of it compared to the rev flying. Cuddos to the CP for going to bat for me with upper managment. My faith in humanity is restored! As I'm sure many of you would aggree, doing a little bit of non-rev to get to a high-hour job is not the end of the world. But there have to be limits and company policy should not be blindly applied in all cases. The progressive companies out there that care about keeping good people will be able look objectivly at a particular case and do the right thing.
I think I am working for one of them.
Cheers
As for my case, I am pleased to say that the company decided it would be fair to pay me for the non-rev flying on this job because there was so much of it compared to the rev flying. Cuddos to the CP for going to bat for me with upper managment. My faith in humanity is restored! As I'm sure many of you would aggree, doing a little bit of non-rev to get to a high-hour job is not the end of the world. But there have to be limits and company policy should not be blindly applied in all cases. The progressive companies out there that care about keeping good people will be able look objectivly at a particular case and do the right thing.
I think I am working for one of them.
Cheers
