High Tech Vehicles
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dapoes
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Nope, its called evolution. Technology advances for the benefit of the consumer not a third party in a snit because they cant make money off of it.
There already is a limit......try and buy 'manufacturer specific data'.....about the only place I know other than Haynes is All Data and you're going to pay top shelf for the data.
You can't get specific's through Chilton or others for several years....I think those manuals are bunk any how.
I get factory manuals for my vehicles.....and they're getting quite expensive.
Just like trying to repair them yourself.....I have the ability but anymore the tooling gets more exotic and costly.
Price a Genysis reader lately?
I have a 99 Silverado....for one.......ABS......break into the ABS system and there's a specific bleed procedure where you have to fire off each wheel circuit to actuate the solenoids for each wheel to properly bleed them.....where you get an after market tool for that? For one time? Duh....Mr Goodwrench will tighten you up.....
My new Yoda?.............you'll have an accident if you price their manuals....however they're very reliable for about 100k...so hopefully......
Agree with all you said.
Have you tried shotgunning a new vehicle lately? That is really expensive.
Here is a story for you:
I have a 2004 Civic. I decided one time I was going to treat her to some 93 octane gasoline when I was up in OKC on a trip. The only time I drive it regularly is when I go to OKC for training because it gets 40 MPG's compared to the 20MPG with my truck. It has always used regular 87 octane (with 10% ethanol now) and has done fine. Never a problem.
I got back home running that 93 octane and handed the car back to my wife. Within the next couple of days the check engine light came on. I immediately blamed her for ruining the car.
I could not figure out she had ruined the car. My buddy is a manager at the local parts store and put the OBD II on it. It showed it was the fwd mass air flow sensor (formerly called the 02 sensor). He reset the computer and the light went away. I waited and it came back within 48 hours. I went ahead and bit the bullet and bought one ($150!). My wife kept driving it and I was going to put it in the first chance I got. I racked my brain wondering what could have caused the failure. Then I remembered the gasoline thing. Just by chance, I got him to reset it again. It has never come back. That was 3 months ago. The car freaked out having that high test in it!
I was going to sell the sensor on eBay, but I know as soon as I sell it, the light will come back on... 😱
You're saying you went back to 87 and it went away?
O2 sensor usually in exhaust....mass air flow around intake.
I bought an Actron CP9180 scanner for an old Olds and my Silverado.....It works great as I did some T/S successfully. I got around getting one then it just became a necessary thing.
You ought to own a Harley and need special tooling.....if you're lucky some dealers will order them......most won't. Then you go to the dealer or fab your own.
Be surprised what you can make...especially with the airline machine shop handy.....
O2 sensor usually in exhaust....mass air flow around intake.
I bought an Actron CP9180 scanner for an old Olds and my Silverado.....It works great as I did some T/S successfully. I got around getting one then it just became a necessary thing.
You ought to own a Harley and need special tooling.....if you're lucky some dealers will order them......most won't. Then you go to the dealer or fab your own.
Be surprised what you can make...especially with the airline machine shop handy.....
Garfield1966
Veteran
I don't know what a independent can/can't purchase. I own two older model Mercedes. I have been to various mechanics around the DFW metro area and all of them have the ability to work on late model MB. I was talking with one of the shop managers and we were talking about the computers they need to perform diagnostics. I think the MB system is called "Star ... " something. Anyway, the cost for his system was close to $100k and he is required to pay for upgrades each year or so (also quite costly). They seem to have access to any and all tools they want it is just a matter of cost and the ability to pay.
As for manuals, I have had shop manuals for both of my cars since I bought them. The manuals were a bit costly but they are complete. The set for my '87 is in 4 volumes. I have no idea if US manufactures d the same for their cars.
I just think it should be required from the consumer protection stand point. First I can look in the manual to verify what a mechanic tells me. I can look in the manual to see if it is something I can do or have to contract out. Also, it promotes competition. I sure as heck would not want to know what dealers would charge per hour if there were no independents around to provide competition.
Cars are massively complex. he high end models can have in excess of 20 computers on board and the connections are all fiber optic. CRT displays, engine management systems, safety system they all cost a fortune. Anything I can have to reduce the cost of ownership I am all for.
I realize not all car owners will take advantage of them manuals (very few will) but they have saved me thousands of dollars. I replaced the rear control arm bushings a few weeks ago and the manuals were a life saver. That right there saved me over $500 in labor alone.
I am a member of the national Mercedes club. Here in TX the local chapter has a deal with the dealerships to get parts are whole sale plus 10%. We get 6 tech sessions a year (3 at the 3 dealers and 3 at independents) to use their shops and have assistance from their techs to do what ever work we want in a 4 hour period. Some are working on late model cars as well as oldies like mine.
By the way, my shop manual has part numbers for any specialized tools need for what ever job you are looking at doing. The puller for the bushings on the lower control arm was $167. Fortunately, the indy we had the tech session at had the tool and let me use it.
As for manuals, I have had shop manuals for both of my cars since I bought them. The manuals were a bit costly but they are complete. The set for my '87 is in 4 volumes. I have no idea if US manufactures d the same for their cars.
I just think it should be required from the consumer protection stand point. First I can look in the manual to verify what a mechanic tells me. I can look in the manual to see if it is something I can do or have to contract out. Also, it promotes competition. I sure as heck would not want to know what dealers would charge per hour if there were no independents around to provide competition.
Cars are massively complex. he high end models can have in excess of 20 computers on board and the connections are all fiber optic. CRT displays, engine management systems, safety system they all cost a fortune. Anything I can have to reduce the cost of ownership I am all for.
I realize not all car owners will take advantage of them manuals (very few will) but they have saved me thousands of dollars. I replaced the rear control arm bushings a few weeks ago and the manuals were a life saver. That right there saved me over $500 in labor alone.
I am a member of the national Mercedes club. Here in TX the local chapter has a deal with the dealerships to get parts are whole sale plus 10%. We get 6 tech sessions a year (3 at the 3 dealers and 3 at independents) to use their shops and have assistance from their techs to do what ever work we want in a 4 hour period. Some are working on late model cars as well as oldies like mine.
By the way, my shop manual has part numbers for any specialized tools need for what ever job you are looking at doing. The puller for the bushings on the lower control arm was $167. Fortunately, the indy we had the tech session at had the tool and let me use it.
You're saying you went back to 87 and it went away?
O2 sensor usually in exhaust....mass air flow around intake.
I bought an Actron CP9180 scanner for an old Olds and my Silverado.....It works great as I did some T/S successfully. I got around getting one then it just became a necessary thing.
You ought to own a Harley and need special tooling.....if you're lucky some dealers will order them......most won't. Then you go to the dealer or fab your own.
Be surprised what you can make...especially with the airline machine shop handy.....
Yep. She (the Honda Civic) likes it cheap and dirty!
Maybe you should have run a bottle of Saki through it....LOL
Used to have a Honda Goldwing and the Harley boys were prone to jerking me about that...until I bought a HD and made a few 'modifications' and it was faster than theirs....LOL
The Goldwing had a tow hitch for the trailer that came with it......Harley guys wanted to know what I did with that...I told them it was to tow my Harley Low Rider home when it broke down...you should have seen the look on their faces.....I literally had to tell them I was kidding.
LOL
Isn't that why most guys have two Harley's...one for parts.
And an assortment of hammers in all weights.
Garfield1966
Veteran
My dad said the same of Jaguar for a while. He said you needed 3. One for the shop, one to drive and one for parts.
I still think some of the older ones are some of the prettiest cars on the road. The old E type still looks great after all this time.
The new ones are cool, but they look like everything else on the road. The Maserati Quattroporte is a sweet looking ride.
I get the idea of technology for engine management and safety but I cannot help but think we have gone a bit overboard. Heated and cooled seats, night vision, HUD displays, radar guided cruise control... etc. Seems on the one hand it can help but it some of this also takes the driver out of the loop. The new S class MB can be driven with out the driver touching the gas or brakes. If you set the cruise to a certain speed, it will maintain that speed and when it comes to traffic, it will slow down and come to a complete stop if necessary and then start up again when traffic allows. I know there are fail safes and the system has been vetted but what if the unknown happens? The driver is oblivious and not prepared for a failed system. I know the odds are quite high of this happening but I like to be more involved in driving. May be it is my gear head side taking over but I like my old 87 Benz. I drive it, not the other way around. It still makes good mileage and it is still cheaper to maintain than buying a new car. I don't have a problem getting any parts for it. So for the time being, it and my wife's '95 will say in the family.
I still think some of the older ones are some of the prettiest cars on the road. The old E type still looks great after all this time.
The new ones are cool, but they look like everything else on the road. The Maserati Quattroporte is a sweet looking ride.
I get the idea of technology for engine management and safety but I cannot help but think we have gone a bit overboard. Heated and cooled seats, night vision, HUD displays, radar guided cruise control... etc. Seems on the one hand it can help but it some of this also takes the driver out of the loop. The new S class MB can be driven with out the driver touching the gas or brakes. If you set the cruise to a certain speed, it will maintain that speed and when it comes to traffic, it will slow down and come to a complete stop if necessary and then start up again when traffic allows. I know there are fail safes and the system has been vetted but what if the unknown happens? The driver is oblivious and not prepared for a failed system. I know the odds are quite high of this happening but I like to be more involved in driving. May be it is my gear head side taking over but I like my old 87 Benz. I drive it, not the other way around. It still makes good mileage and it is still cheaper to maintain than buying a new car. I don't have a problem getting any parts for it. So for the time being, it and my wife's '95 will say in the family.
My Father had an XKE when I was a little kid. He was always under the hood.
My neighbor had 3 MGB's and 2 Fiat's. He could only keep one on the road at any given time.
Garfield1966
Veteran
I think with older cars manuals were not such an issue. You had a carb, basic electrics (screwed up electrics with the English) and that's it. Not to hard to work on or figure out. My '87 and '95 are not so difficult but some things are put together in such a manner that if you do not see a blow up of it you won't know how to take it apart. the door panels on the '95 have to lifted then slid over to com off other wise you will break off some of the plastic tabs that hold the panel onto the door. For the rear bushings I mentioned earlier, I had never replaced them before. It was nice to look at the manual and get a step by step before I dove into it. Same with the glow plug I had to replace.
Not so sure how much help a manual would be to me on a 2010 diesel or gasser given all the computers that run it. A guy was working on a 2004 Coupe. He was replacing the hydro fluid for the suspension. In order to get the fluid circulated, they had to 'rodeo' it. MB tech term for getting the car to act like a low rider and go up and down on all four corners one at time. Only way to do that is to hook it up to a MB computer and give it instructions to act like a pissed off bull. Kind of cool to watch though. I can only imagine what that little piece of hard ware would cost. A manual would help on the minor stuff like suspension, interior bits and pieces, may be some of the electronics if you are comfy with that stuff (I'm not) but it should be made available.
I can see no reason why a auto manufacture should be allowed to not sell the tools required to repair the car. I am sure there is some way to keep proprietary info secure. That would be like only allowing Boeing to fix their own planes at authorized Boeing dealers.
Not so sure how much help a manual would be to me on a 2010 diesel or gasser given all the computers that run it. A guy was working on a 2004 Coupe. He was replacing the hydro fluid for the suspension. In order to get the fluid circulated, they had to 'rodeo' it. MB tech term for getting the car to act like a low rider and go up and down on all four corners one at time. Only way to do that is to hook it up to a MB computer and give it instructions to act like a pissed off bull. Kind of cool to watch though. I can only imagine what that little piece of hard ware would cost. A manual would help on the minor stuff like suspension, interior bits and pieces, may be some of the electronics if you are comfy with that stuff (I'm not) but it should be made available.
I can see no reason why a auto manufacture should be allowed to not sell the tools required to repair the car. I am sure there is some way to keep proprietary info secure. That would be like only allowing Boeing to fix their own planes at authorized Boeing dealers.
Back when I was a sheetmetal tech in the hangar for NWA we would only buy one fitting, clip, etc., from Douglas (or Boeing), then we would reproduce them ourselves. We were allowed to do that if they were only used on NWA aircraft. The only structural parts we would buy would be the large ones like main fuselage frames, landing gear fittings, etc. All the rest we made from the dwgs or from the one that the company purchased.
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