Hours

[Skids Up]

I believe that an extension was done back in 93/94?? when I was in Sask. Pilots were timing out so they raise the bar.

Can't quite figure out why it is when we are going about our normal jobs(?) we are held to the hours per 30, but when it gets busy, emotional, stressful, (homes burning, loss of livehood etc,) we can raise the bar to a whole new standard.

What will happen now when some one gets "busted" in the normal job? Will we be able to fight it by showing we can handle the added responsibility , stress and emotional baggage....?

Maybe it's time for changes to be pushed for.

 

[otooley]

deleted by Otooley as it was off topic.

 

[downwash]

I think a government-declared State of Emergency qualifies as a little more than 'getting busy' Skids. That was the criterion for T.C. allowing the exemption (which ends on Sept. 30th., unless cancelled earlier, presumably because the emergency ends).

Maybe it's a generational thing, but I've always considered such a condition as calling for action 'above and beyond' and hardly suggestive that it should set the standard for normal activities. That smacks somewhat of a 'dog in the manger' attitude to me, and seems hardly reflective of the honored standards established in the aviation industry for many generations past, few, if any, of which would appear to call for the kind of measures suggested above. B)

 

[Blackmac]

Downwash: I'm surprised at your outlook on TC being able to grant pilots the capability of flying longer under state of emergency conditions.

When flying under emergency conditions such as "Fire Fighting" and /or shooting at somebody, there is normally only the pilot on board. Under those conditions he is not exposing any body else to harm. It would be up to the company or if left up to the pilot to set the limitations. Should these limits cause incidents, the insurance company will advise asap.

The only time the government should be involved is a concern for passengers.

Firefighting: Designate fire fighting a/c and passenger carrying a/c.

It's called the KISS principle.

Rules should be made by people actually governed by them.

 

[sharkbait]

I do not want any of my friends hurt either alone or with passengers aboard.
( "Its OK - your loved one died alone and didn't hit anyone on the ground!" - give me a break!!!!!)
This is not a war this is a bad fire season.
Human life is worth considerably more than trees or houses or anything else
Where human life is in danger we will be there in a flash but trees and houses?
They translate into money and money can be replaced. I don't think anyone who has been evacuated ( to safeguard their lives ) wants to see anyone hurt trying to save their house.
Adding fatigue an already difficult environment is asking for trouble.
We have seen the skill degradation caused by lack of sleep, long hours,dehydration, hurried food, substandard acommodation, stress and strain.
Fires lead to a rush attitude and one starts to feel indespensable.
Even when operating with extended hours sometimes you, or hopefully your boss, should say enough - take a day off.
We have seen people when fatigued - remember the bad old days when people got bushed - You would have a hard time convincing him to get on the plane out as he felt fine and was raring to go. The fact he had a 100 mile stare, had tried to start with the tiedown on, forgot to refuel once or twice or dropped a load or was flying in worse, worser, worstest weather notwithstanding.
Granted I am not there so maybe I don't know what I am talking about but I have seen some accidents caused directly by fatigue and don't want to see or hear about anymore!
Sometimes the last person who should be deciding if they are fatiqued is the person concerned.
Let's take a step back and look at what we are doing.
Please fly safe everyone.
And that's alll I have to say about that.
You may fire at will.
There is not a clickable smile to denote how I feel about this -

 

[Elvis]

There seems to be little to no mention of the long hours the maintenance people are working.
What is the possibility of a major snag being missed due to extreme fatigue?

🙁 🙁

 

[Blackmac]

Sharkbait: You are right in your comments, but only repeating what has already been stated. My comments are for the pilots to make up their own mind on flying hours and or the company keeping aware of the situation on a daily basis. If a pilot is fatigued he has the right to ground himself or the company can. Few companies will do it, because it effects revenue.

The only time an actual emergency exists is when there is life involved and even then, it is questionable.

Tree's will grow again and houses can be rebuilt.

I have worked Search & Rescue (in the service), been on lot's of fires and had a guy die at a camp when I refused to fly him into a local airstrip at night.

Had I flown him into the local strip at night he would not receive any better treatment than he was presently receiving as he would not have been flown out till the next morning.

The question was put to me if I would fly him out????

My response was as follows: I was flying a 212 with all the instrumentation and the only other person I could rely on was my engineer. This of course was in Africa and when it's dark, it is really dark.

I was putting my life, engineers life and first aid attendent and of course the person who had the heart attack, life in jeopardy.

My instrument rating had never been used and I was not qualified to fly under those conditions.

Needless to say the body was flown out the next morning.

DOWNWASH: You can check this story with your chief engineer, he was with me.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO MAKE A DECISION, MAKE THE RIGHT ONE.

REMEMBER THE "FIRE BOSS" IS NOT DOING THE FLYING.

 

[sharkbait]

ELVIS:
You are so right.
They get up before us, go to bed after us and most of times work a heck of a lot harder than we do too.
I don't think we can do justice in this forum to them.
They sure have saved my butt a good many times.

Blackmac:
A heartrending call but the correct one.
Someone once wanted us to fly 200 miles in a single otter to land on a lake at night in a snowstorm to pick up a heart attack victim . No NDB no lights on either end. I do not think anyone had an IFR. Naturaly everyone refused.
They then came back about 15 minutes later and really got heavy handed as the poor man had passed away and they were in panic mode. We had to get the body out as it was "bad for morale in the camp". (No kidding ) :wacko: Naturaly we refused again.
The weather finally cleared 2 days later before someone got in from Schefferville to remove the deceased.
Cheers.

Biggles:
Soon - very soon. Inform XK47.

 

[downwash]

Blackie and 'bait

Agree 100% with your basic premises. I just don't want anyone telling me that I can't fly more hours than 'normal' if the authority with jurisdiction says I can.

In other words, regardless of whoever SHOULD set flight time and duty time limitations, Transport Canada set them NOW. If they've seen fit to raise the bar for the government-declared emergency, and I know I'm fit, unfatigued, and able to achieve the increased limits, I'll do it - with due regard to all safety considerations AND my company's and my own pocketbooks - for which I make NO apology, to ANYONE. B)

 

[Elvis]

Downwash: I agree with Your post to a point. If You persoanly feel that You can exceed the TC limits under the current emergency excemptions than go for it.

But is there the possibility that a few non fit pilots will see the $$$ and go for it.

 

[100ft]

Question:
How might a pilot in the following scenario view the extension?
48 yrs old, senior but not ready to retire, put in a long summer already, becoming worn down by the pace of the past few weeks fighting fires, looking fwd to an upcoming few days legislated rest when his boss calls with the good news that she/he can now fly an additional 30 hrs this 30 day block due to the extension and is expected to 'be there' for the company.

I personally may not fair as well as a 24 year old by the time I reached 48 and the above circumstance, which is a little different from the above situations. How would some of you view this?

 

[downwash]

Elvis, I'm uncertain what you mean. What I mean, is that I'll go to the limits allowed by the exemption IF I feel up to it, and 100', both your hypothetical 48 year-old and this XX year-old better have the balz to tell the boss, no, if we don't feel 100% confident and safe about it. As the man once said, "I was looking for a job when I found this one." B)