IAM Withdraws from Labor Coalition

[avek00]

Busdrvr:

That's simply not true. ALPA is in considerable danger of having its contract abrogated should it not agree to a real concessionary package. The IAM is not out of the woods completely, but it has an idea of the workrule relief necessary to stand an excellent chance of keeping its contract intact. The AFA is least vulnerable in a BK scenario; heck, they could choose to not concede a dime and probably get away with it.

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 10/12/2002 12:38:38 AM chipmunn wrote:

Busdrvr:

US Airways labor restructuring agreements provided pay, work rule, and benefit concessions. All of the agreements provided productivity improvements, which were assigned annual cost savings agreed to by the parties. Part of the delay is obtaining TA's was for the two sides to reach agreement on productivity dollar values. In the case of UA, productivity valuations could take time, which is not something the company and its employees have a lot of.

Chip
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[/blockquote]


Call me crazy Chip, but wouldn't you think that UAL, with all the high dollar consultants ALREADY has a wish list of work rule modifications with dollar values already assigned? The IAM term sheet said as much. I wouldn't think they are just now thinking about those items.

 

[Taipan]

Bus Drvr whats up? I am not saying I am for this(Giving up the retro) I am just pointing out what kind of money and sacrafice we would be talking about for the they arent getting the retro crowd on here

 

[chipmunn]

Busdrvr:

US Airways labor restructuring agreements provided pay, work rule, and benefit concessions. All of the agreements provided productivity improvements, which were assigned annual cost savings agreed to by the parties. Part of the delay is obtaining TA's was for the two sides to reach agreement on productivity dollar values. In the case of UA, productivity valuations could take time, which is not something the company and its employees have a lot of.

Chip

 

[Busdrvr]

Avek,
Wrong again! The IAM has NOT given backpay relief (yet). they have merely agreed to loan the money to UAL at 7% (with colateral). If the IAM decides to give up the back pay (not the best of ideas IMHO, sets a bad precedent, you've ALREADY earned that money), then they should AND will get FULL credit for it.


Taipan
I will temper my opinion of the work rules in this respect. The ATSB is NOT about how many assests you ALREADY have or how successful you were two years ago, it's about FUTURE viability. Giving up backpay to keep the same wage rates merely effects the cash balance of the company and it's total assets, it DOESN'T change the CASM in the future. However, if the ATSB actually considers the business plan DYNAMICALLY instead of statically, then maybe they will see the potential for growth and the savings UAL will realize with differant work rules. Unlike Chip, I don't have any moles on the ATSB reporting back to me, so I really don't know if it will fly

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 10/12/2002 1204 AM Taipan wrote:

Bus Drvr whats up? I am not saying I am for this, I am just pointing out what kind of money and sacrafice we would be talking about for the "they arent getting the retro crowd on here"
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[/blockquote]

What do you mean? I personally don't think you should give up retro. It will only encourage the company to stall negotiations in the future. I think you should be paid for the last two years JUST LIKE THE PILOTS AND MANAGEMENT! Then, we can move forward with a sense of shared sacrifice and fairness. But that's a decision you guys will have to make.

 

[Taipan]

Thats what I mean, refer back to the post (10-11-02 12:38 am) about what I expect us to give up, but that being said I expect to see my first retro payment 10 days before christmas, 15 Dec 02.

 

[wts54]

Has anyone thought about an original idea of UAL
paying the damn debt payment out of our cash reserve?
Why is it UAL corp always comes up with some scheme to
steal hard earned money from its employees.Now they are
in concert with ATSB and it seems to me the rest of the
airline execs to put a chokehold on all of us to drive down
our labor rates and destroy our unions.
The deal given to the IAM was like the company handing me
a pair of 45's loaded and telling me that I can commit suicide
with either one but its my choice to decide.Thanks a alot.
Im not onboard with this govt welfare induced crowbar they
are using to leverage against us.If we kept the govt out and
decided among ourselves and without all these extra players well
then Im in.To me this is just another scam at which they may well
succeed but not with my help.Thank you

 

[avek00]

Paying the debts from UAL's cash-on-hand is NOT a viable option. When combined with daily losses that may range anywhere from $1-7 million/day, the debt servicing payments would likely bring UA's overall cash balance down to a level which is below the minimum required to continue operations sometime in Q1 2003.

 

[wts54]

Well you maybe correct but this has been a long time coming,and I'm really
upset that every time there is a new contract for the workers somewhere,
somehow they always seem to be able to devise a way to steal it back.I have
thought seriously about my future at UAL and I dont plan on leaving while
I have a car payment and I paid off all my debt except the car loan.Even at
personal risk to myself I am never going to accept any ERP that includes
UAL being able to change the contract anyway they want.If UAL goes out of
business so be it I will adapt to the situation and move back to my lakeside
family home in Missouri and start again.

 

[mastermechanic]

I'm with you...I only came here to maintain airplanes. I could care less after all this junk we have had to put up with. I work to the highest standards and to the best of my ability. Thats all I'm supposed to do...I care what happens to United, I like others helped it make billions and provide a living for myself...if it has been mis-managed or if it is just time for the old boat to sink, that is out of my hands...I do my best to provide the services I am paid for...that's all I can do

 

[kcabpilot]

Yea, me too. If United goes Tango Uniform then I guess I'll have to sell this $300,000 crackerbox they call a house that I'm living in, give up the 100 mile a day commute, the six day work weeks, the night shifts and weekends.

Shoot, I miss it already

 

[wts54]

UAL like Ive said before has a two-class citizenship system.Firstclass citizenship
is given to pilots and management as evident by the first ERP where they
both actually would be better off if they accepted it.Then theres everyone
else like me who one way or the other are going to get the short end of the
stick anyway so what the hell.Now with flight crews releasing brakes to help with ontime departures and farming out more and more maint work.I feel that this really is not the good ole UAL of the past,but mainly just
a glorified greyhound bus outfit whose busses happen to have wings.Can
you imagine a greyhound bus driver having the attitude and ego some of our
folks have who during the summer of 2000 were refusing to fly trips because there were no orange juice in f/c or they didnt have the correct
crew meal God forbid someone has to actually buy their own lunch.
Management I cant even begin to explain how we must have the biggest
collection of (not all) morons who make the most idiotic decisions known
to man or who are the biggest bunch of cowards there ever were(not all).
If management or pilots or any other group wants to save UAL fill out
a deduction form and if enough people join you fine then all is well
since they have the most to lose...

 

[Busdrvr]

[blockquote]
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On 10/12/2002 2:12:45 PM wts54 wrote:

UAL like Ive said before has a two-class citizenship system.Firstclass citizenship is given to pilots and management as evident by the first ERP where they both actually would be better off if they accepted it.

Is that what you heard in the lounge while you were playing Hearts between banks? The goal of ALPA was to come up with a plan that would help UAL for the next 4 years WITHOUT permanately damaging the profession. Are you of the opinion that approx 15% pay cut by next april, along with allowing the company to keep illegal furloughs on the street, outsource more flying to RJ's and not providing contractual pay protection, is simply not enough? What did the IAM proposal look like? Oh wait, the IAM, with all it's consultants didn't think they'd have to participate AT ALL! ALPAs PERCENTAGE CUT will likely be about DOUBLE your's. Talk about a two class system! You featherbed and complain all day because you can't seem to figure out how to get jets out on time, while SWA seems able two with HALF the manpower, and ALPA pays for it.

Then theres everyone else like me who one way or the other are going to get the short end of the stick anyway so what the hell. Now with flight crews releasing brakes to help with ontime departures and farming out more and more maint work.I feel that this really is not the good ole UAL of the past,but mainly just a glorified greyhound bus outfit whose busses happen to have wings

Get Used To It! If you don't like it, please leave. You're doing no one any good by even comming to work with your PP attitude. Maybe if you quit now, you'll have a jump on all those $50 an hour Mr. Goodwrench jobs you seem to think are out there. Maybe your replacement will be someone with a little enthusiasm and much more of a clue. then maybe your stock will be worth something, instead of BK wallpaper. seems to be, the sooner you leave, the better. What, with all those dangerous pilots releasing brakes, your safety depends on you quitting


Can you imagine a greyhound bus driver having the attitude and ego some of our folks have who during the summer of 2000 were refusing to fly trips because there were no orange juice in f/c or they didnt have the correct
crew meal God forbid someone has to actually buy their own lunch.

God forbid, you get off your can and have a jet ready for departure on time. You've got about an hour on average. But then again, in most cases, you don't even show up til right about push time do ya?

Management I cant even begin to explain how we must have the biggest
collection of (not all) morons who make the most idiotic decisions known
to man or who are the biggest bunch of cowards there ever were(not all).
If management or pilots or any other group wants to save UAL fill out
a deduction form and if enough people join you fine then all is well
since they have the most to lose...

It's all everyone elses fault huh? Keep believing the pilots have the most to lose. I think you'll change your mind, about the time the bank puts the wheels back on your house so they can take it away.
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[/blockquote]

 

[kcabpilot]

jeez Busdrvr are you really that keyed up? Are you furloughed? I mean, I'd hate to think that somebody wound so tight is up there with the stick in his hand.

Go ahead and lay into me if it'll make you feel better. I only come here once or twice a week.