If released could AA pull an NW on TWU for line and overhaul?

[Bob Owens]

I'm still unclear on why you guys are so hell-bent to sign a new contract before you remove the useless, impotent union. Wouldn't it be a better strategy to fire the worthless union and THEN negotiate a new agreement with the company? Bob's confident that retro will be key feature of the new contract, so why the hurry? Retro will take care of any delay.

Obviously the longer this goes on the larger the retro, and the larger the retro the harder it will be to get the full amount. You have to remember that our ordeal started eight years ago, not three.

 

[xUT]

Actually I think NWA master plan for AMFA was because this merger was planned if not advertised and AMFA was never to be a part of it in my opinion. I do agree with Bob that if this had happened today it would have had very little chance of success. NW had a hard time pulling it off in 2005 even with the administration, the FAA, the unions everyone was on their side..Not the same climate today. Plus aside from AMFA the other industrial unions today are unlikely to strike as they might have in the past. They are too much in the companies pocket and will not risk losing further membership to take a stand and risk losing it they will sell out their membership first..Much like the TWU.

That would be collusion which is illegal. It is only circumstance that non-union Delta declared BK days within NWA declared BK and then decided to merge. There was no prior planning but mere happenstance.


B)

 

[Kev3188]

It seems in 2005 NWA continued its operations uninterrupted and was able to contract out its operations.

Josh

Uninterrupted? Not by a long shot... What had been an extremely efficient operation became a train wreck overnight. Planes diverting left and right, those that were still flying plastered with orange stickers, and so on. Sure, the curve smoothed out a bit, but it never became more than a shadow of what it had been.

 

[787nightmare]

So, when is AA going to start advertising for Mechanics? If you look on the careers page for mechanics in this country, it comes up with 0 findings.

Though it's been a while now, I've seen JFK, LGA, ORD and AFW candidate pool external postings(maybe BOS-can't remember).
And suspect more to come fairly soon. I too agree, that it'll pick up after a contract is done.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

I think AA is certain to bring replacement workers onto the property if TWU goes down the strike road, which is why I think it's crazy for AA's mechanics and other ground workers to consider a strike. The odds that they will be replaced are very high, as the recession left a large pool of unemployed and underemployed people to draw from.

Anyone know what percentage of striking NWA employees actually made it back to work when all was said and done?

 

[strikeforce]

I think AA is certain to bring replacement workers onto the property if TWU goes down the strike road, which is why I think it's crazy for AA's mechanics and other ground workers to consider a strike. The odds that they will be replaced are very high, as the recession left a large pool of unemployed and underemployed people to draw from.

Anyone know what percentage of striking NWA employees actually made it back to work when all was said and done?

Do you actually believe mechanics are just gonna sit around and do NOTHING during the 30 day cooling off period? Especially knowing that we're gonna be replaced?

The odds are HIGH that AA will not look the same after 30 days, let alone 7 days!

There's gonna be lots of metal sitting idle! Lots of passengers stranded! Lots of management going out the door!

 

[Hackman]

I think AA is certain to bring replacement workers onto the property if TWU goes down the strike road, which is why I think it's crazy for AA's mechanics and other ground workers to consider a strike. The odds that they will be replaced are very high, as the recession left a large pool of unemployed and underemployed people to draw from.

Anyone know what percentage of striking NWA employees actually made it back to work when all was said and done?

No surprise here from the management lovin' lackey loud mouth. I guess they had better get the scabs in training for next year, but of course the NMB will wait until management is reading before any release like they did at NWA. That is why a wildcat strike is the only way to win against these odds, but will never happen with the weak company union, the Twu.

Interesting...I was in the garage the other night working on my project car and I hear an advertisement on the radio for a "Career in Aviation Technology and Maintenance" at the Aviation Institute of Maintenance (1-800-481-8920). Holy Crap!!!! For the first time in 25 years or better, have I heard on the radio or TV an advertisement for an aviation school of any type. Then I read this week (tried to find the article but no luck) how skilled labor (machinists, skilled machine operators, licensed and certified mechanics, plant maintenance, etc.) are in limited supply and hard to find. In fact the article stated the manufacturer was PAYING for worker candidates to attend classes to become skilled enough to work with the skilled workers in a training program and replace them when they retire. They had to maintain a 3.0 to be reimbursed for the courses.

So you can come here an stir the sh*t like you love to do, but I guess we might have to see if your right with a strike. With the worthless Twu? Not so much.

You must have a boring unproductive attorney practice (assuming you are) if you gotta come here late at night and post on 10 AA subjects at a time.

 

[Hopeful]

I'm still unclear on why you guys are so hell-bent to sign a new contract before you remove the useless, impotent union. Wouldn't it be a better strategy to fire the worthless union and THEN negotiate a new agreement with the company? Bob's confident that retro will be key feature of the new contract, so why the hurry? Retro will take care of any delay.

The problem is that AA does not want to lose "their" union. The TWU has been most accomodating to company demands over the past few decades. We are not only fighting against the company, but in some respects we are battling the TWU. What makes the current state of affairs different is the fact that the "company TA" was rejected by an almost 2-1 margin. Within this vote was another fact where TULE voted no with roughly the same ratio.
So the company and the TWU have a real problem on their hands. They simply cannot just change a few items and push a contract through. Those days are gone.
So they are going to either come back with an acceptable offer, or begin the threats (ala 2003), and hopefully scare people into accepting their sub-par offer.

 

[Bob Owens]

I think AA is certain to bring replacement workers onto the property if TWU goes down the strike road, which is why I think it's crazy for AA's mechanics and other ground workers to consider a strike. The odds that they will be replaced are very high, as the recession left a large pool of unemployed and underemployed people to draw from.

Anyone know what percentage of striking NWA employees actually made it back to work when all was said and done?

And what do you base that on? The fact is that AA had planned to add 900 mechanics this year and they are having a hard time getting that. They've reached out to seven schools for mechanics just in order to keep up with attrition. The TWU and other unions are organizing the MROs but the MROs cant hold on to enough mechanics either. Its hard to organize a place when the workers keep leaving. Boeing has halted the 747 line just so their mechanics can catch up, they reportedly are 1100 jobs behind. AA has had 757s sitting out of service because they are falling behind despite record amounts of OT. All this OT has drawn the attention of the FAA who are considering reinterpreting the FARs and requiring more rest, but the airlines (and some of their pet unions) are squawking about it.

In 2005 there was without a doubt a surpluss of mechanics, despite that NWA had a hard time keeping their operation going, they slashed it by 20% and the company was bought out by Delta. In 2005 nearly every carrier had hundreds if not thousands of mechanics out on the street. Many have since been picked up by carriers like Jet Blue, 3P providers in lower cost parts of the country or other industries. They simply arent out there anymore. The only people that they will get are those who simply miss working on airplanes or want to work in a specific location, and most would not scab because they know that if they do they will never be forgiven and they would simply wait it out.

In 2011 there's a shortage of mechanics despite the high unemployment rate. Today the FAA issues less than half the certs they used to, not even 3000 last year, and 54% of our mechanics are over 50 years of age. If AA could take on a strike they would have let us go on strike when we asked to be released over a year ago. Why, becuase a year ago they had over 1000 mechanics on the recall list, now they have none, Ual is blowing through their list as well, with a 60% refusal rate, the rate usually increases because the further down you go the less seniority they have, meaning they probalbly have more time at their new employer than they did at the carrier.

The fact is that Airline Mechanics posess highly portable skills, and the airline industry isnt the only one having a hard time finding people with those skills.





A Wildcat Strike, by definition, is a strike that has not been authorized by the trade union to which the members belong. Basically we are going the way of Vietnam where nearly all strike are considered Wildcat strikes. Under the RLA we can not strike and the NMB will provide companies with endless delays which allow carriers to extract concessions through inflation (our dispatchers have been in negotiations since 2006). Over the years the NMB has steadily dragged out negotiations from an avereage of weeks to an average of years. Clearly this works to the benifit of the carriers and against workers. The only time the NMB will release workers in a matter of weeks is when the carrier has indicated that they have enough scabs to continue operations. We saked to be released over a year ago. We are no closer to a settlement now than we were then. In a GAO report it was cited that higher rates of service interruptions do seem to occur when negotiations drag on but with the data they had they could not be certian if it was the delay or weather that drove the interuptions.To me its clear, the government will side with the carrier in order to keep things moving, the carrier will simply wait things out as inflation continues to slash their workers pay and the only time either of them will move is when both those parties feel that this pressure has caused the Union to lose control over the workers and the workers Wildact in some form or another and cause massive disturbances to commerce. Its seems as if the government expects it, if the workers arent actually causing problems, in other words if they continue to obey the law, then the Economic need simply isnt there, they are happy enough, let inflation continue to slash their pay until they do.

 

[strikeforce]

A Wildcat Strike, by definition, is a strike that has not been authorized by the trade union to which the members belong. Basically we are going the way of Vietnam where nearly all strike are considered Wildcat strikes. Under the RLA we can not strike and the NMB will provide companies with endless delays which allow carriers to extract concessions through inflation (our dispatchers have been in negotiations since 2006). Over the years the NMB has steadily dragged out negotiations from an avereage of weeks to an average of years. Clearly this works to the benifit of the carriers and against workers. The only time the NMB will release workers in a matter of weeks is when the carrier has indicated that they have enough scabs to continue operations. We saked to be released over a year ago. We are no closer to a settlement now than we were then. In a GAO report it was cited that higher rates of service interruptions do seem to occur when negotiations drag on but with the data they had they could not be certian if it was the delay or weather that drove the interuptions.To me its clear, the government will side with the carrier in order to keep things moving, the carrier will simply wait things out as inflation continues to slash their workers pay and the only time either of them will move is when both those parties feel that this pressure has caused the Union to lose control over the workers and the workers Wildact in some form or another and cause massive disturbances to commerce. Its seems as if the government expects it, if the workers arent actually causing problems, in other words if they continue to obey the law, then the Economic need simply isnt there, they are happy enough, let inflation continue to slash their pay until they do.

Bob,
If the NMB is that one-sided towards carriers.. why did the TWU agree to mediated sessions, knowing this train wreck would last many years? What I get from your post is......the carriers, NMB, and the government are in collusion against the workers.....so why are we just sitting around and waiting for AA to make us an offer? Why not just shut the place down? This is what all the parties expect anyway. What are our leaders afraid of...Court Injunction? Jail? Fines? Who cares at this point? How about a Wildcat Jihad?

 

[Bob Owens]

Bob,
If the NMB is that one-sided towards carriers.. why did the TWU agree to mediated sessions, knowing this train wreck would last many years? What I get from your post is......the carriers, NMB, and the government are in collusion against the workers.....so why are we just sitting around and waiting for AA to make us an offer?

The RLA is one sided and the trend is to no longer even try to hide it. Years ago once the union filed to be released it may take months but now its years, the NMB has even instructed Unions to lower their demands under the threat that they would put them on ICE forever, I've never seen where the NMB told a carrier to lower their demands.
We really dont have any choice. That is the process under the law. Thats why I say we should have filed May 1 2008 for mediation. We had already been in negotiations for six months after granting the company a two year repreive by not opening the agreement in 2006 as we were told would happen in 2003. At least then we would have a better story to tell the public.

Why not just shut the place down? This is what all the parties expect anyway. What are our leaders afraid of...Court Injunction? Jail? Fines? Who cares at this point? How about a Wildcat Jihad?

I guess the concern is that we would call for it and nobody would do it. So we would end up in jail with millions in fines levied against us while the guys watch us getting hauled off on TV while working OT. That guys are more worried about their CS's and laptop time than their paychecks. I dont believe thats the case but I dont have any more proof that its not than those who think that do. I think we've behaved too well and the NMB and the company see that as a sign that the workforce finds current conditions acceptable.

The choice presented by the NMB to workers at AA is simple, look at the FAs, look at Fleet, look at the Pilots, look at dispatch, we can meet month after month after month and talk, and talk, and talk(M&R and Stores) , or not (Fleet, APA, APFA etc), but in the end its "accept continued concessions or the NMB will simply hold us where we are and let inflation take the concessions". In the meantime the company will continue to reduce our pay by increasing what they charge us for Medical on top of inflation. As long as the planes keep going out they figure that you are alright with it.

Maybe, hopefully I'm wrong. Lets see what Friday brings.

 

[strikeforce]

The RLA is one sided and the trend is to no longer even try to hide it. Years ago once the union filed to be released it may take months but now its years, the NMB has even instructed Unions to lower their demands under the threat that they would put them on ICE forever, I've never seen where the NMB told a carrier to lower their demands.
We really dont have any choice. That is the process under the law. Thats why I say we should have filed May 1 2008 for mediation. We had already been in negotiations for six months after granting the company a two year repreive by not opening the agreement in 2006 as we were told would happen in 2003. At least then we would have a better story to tell the public.



I guess the concern is that we would call for it and nobody would do it. So we would end up in jail with millions in fines levied against us while the guys watch us getting hauled off on TV while working OT. That guys are more worried about their CS's and laptop time than their paychecks. I dont believe thats the case but I dont have any more proof that its not than those who think that do. I think we've behaved too well and the NMB and the company see that as a sign that the workforce finds current conditions acceptable.

The choice presented by the NMB to workers at AA is simple, look at the FAs, look at Fleet, look at the Pilots, look at dispatch, we can meet month after month after month and talk, and talk, and talk(M&R and Stores) , or not (Fleet, APA, APFA etc), but in the end its "accept continued concessions or the NMB will simply hold us where we are and let inflation take the concessions". In the meantime the company will continue to reduce our pay by increasing what they charge us for Medical on top of inflation. As long as the planes keep going out they figure that you are alright with it.

Maybe, hopefully I'm wrong. Lets see what Friday brings.

In my opinion the only solution to this one-sidedness is to have controlled disruptions throughout the industry. What I mean by this is....ual, ups, aa, and a host of other carrier agreements generally amend around the same time.....why not get all the unions to silently "collude" against all carriers. Strategic disruptions against aa this week, ual next week, ups and co the following week. What is the government gonna do throw everyone in jail? After a series of mass disruptions I will bet that either the RLA will be amended towards labor or the industry will be gone.
The other idea is to have all airline unionized workers under one labor organization, like electricians, plumbers and contruction workers. There, when they strike or do job actions it affects large construction projects, residential and commercial projects, and the government listens. I haven't seen those unions buckle under the treat of the government.

 

[strikeforce]

Wasn't AMFA's premise to represent all AMT's throughout the industry? I think it was a great idea. It would definitely raise eye-brows in Washington.

 

[Birdman]

Wasn't AMFA's premise to represent all AMT's throughout the industry? I think it was a great idea. It would definitely raise eye-brows in Washington.

Yes, the premise was sound but the NMB, AA and the TWU thought it was a terrible idea. There is too much greed in the union internationals and the AFL-CIO to even consider uniting professionals in a singular industry.

 

[strikeforce]

Yes, the premise was sound but the NMB, AA and the TWU thought it was a terrible idea. There is too much greed in the union internationals and the AFL-CIO to even consider uniting professionals in a singular industry.

Isn't that enough evidence to get a industry wide card drive to unite all AMT's into one organization....whether it be AMP, AMFA or creating a single labor organization named "BAM" Brotherhood of Aircraft Mechanics.

Do you think it would work if this labor union assigned each member a job? Say, today you work at AA and next week, month or year you work at UA. Mechanics would be qualified by the union on all equipment. Mechanics wouldn't make side deals with management. You work for the union!