Is Parker worth it?

[PITbull]

How much guilt do you think any of those past executives have?

I was referring to the CEO. If you have been reading past posts from execs like Zeus most recently ( just last week)they don't have any conscious.

PITbull,

THINK, He knew who you were and gave you the cold shoulder for a very simple reason. He was "Prepped" by all of those CCY folks. CCY lied to him just like they lied to FFOCUS and all of the Union Leaders.

Only God knows what they lied about because you never could believe a thing they said even after verifying it independently 15 times.

I can't begin to imagine what they said about you to Doug, I know what they said to me about you. You ask me you're lucky he didn't poison your food.

LOL ...yea, you're right. And Jerry was sitting on the right of him.

 

[Dog Wonder]

LOL ...yea, you're right. And Jerry was sitting on the right of him.

Sounds like a battle of corporate bullies.

 

[UPNAWAY]

Remember, it doesn't matter the policy, procedures or marketing atrategies that are thought of, its how these are implemented and deliverd by the employees. If the company experiences reaching performance targets, its because the labor reached the goals and delivered consistantly to the customer!

If this basic concept is not recognized, than its deplorable, and morale specifically on the East won't change.
[/quote]


Then why does labor almost universal reject the idea of pay for perfomance or incentives? Why does labor whant all to make the same no matter the effort or contribution? Why does labor stand behind the bad apples and not police their own? Pitbull I would also like to ask what in your life is different the DP's? He made his way and you made yours, you could have been a CEO and fixed all the wrongs, no? Your point of view while common is nothing more of the old US vs Then union mentality that helps no one, especialy you!

 

[PITbull]

Remember, it doesn't matter the policy, procedures or marketing atrategies that are thought of, its how these are implemented and deliverd by the employees. If the company experiences reaching performance targets, its because the labor reached the goals and delivered consistantly to the customer!

If this basic concept is not recognized, than its deplorable, and morale specifically on the East won't change.
Then why does labor almost universal reject the idea of pay for perfomance or incentives? Why does labor whant all to make the same no matter the effort or contribution? Why does labor stand behind the bad apples and not police their own? Pitbull I would also like to ask what in your life is different the DP's? He made his way and you made yours, you could have been a CEO and fixed all the wrongs, no? Your point of view while common is nothing more of the old US vs Then union mentality that helps no one, especialy you!

Now that's funny.

I have no interest in running an airline. I would rather represent Labor, BECAUSE they need supported and I recognize their value to corporations, and I believe in pushing for balance and a "livable wage" for employees. Its the difference in "ideology". Being at the top of my game, I didn't nearly receive what any exec would make...just my regular hourly wage at my year of service. Keeps me humble and close to the group.

I have received tremendous satisfaction in being an advocate for labor. Hard for the likes of you and those like you to believe.

Infact, you haven't been studying the contracts. All of labor has profit sharing. HOWEVER, what was negotiated in concession #3 for the East, and ratified, ultimately did not receive reception or acceptance from the investors or BOD....soooooo, management came once again back to labor and said they would not give us what they had negotiated and what we ratified, and made adjustments with threats that the company would not make it without the investors, their approval, and acceptance. All of labor challenged this publically and via grivance. The company then came back and gave a few tweeks to our contracts in extending employee active rate medical premium contribution for longer than a lousy 6 months on medical leave, and gave us the first sick call bank usage at 100% per year vs. the typical additional 30% pay hit for being ill.

They did these sort of "small" gives to all of labor so that they would not grieve, oppose in court or challenge the arbitrary changes (decrease) that managment made to the profit sharing piece. This was all in the same breath as they were asking for the courts for $51 million in bonus and severance for non-labor, specifically senior execs.

Don't forget, the company was in a hurry to wrap this up and didn't want any stalling or postponement due to labor's challenge. WE were still in BK, and the judge would have approved anything that was in the Company's POR this past Sept. regardless of labor's endorsement or not. We've had this experience with this bk judge. We all knew this. Our opposition would only be a "stall".

That's the bankruptcy system.

So now, the employees have to look forward to rewarding the current executives with big bonuses and stock (which the company would not offer labor)in the future for company reaching certain profit targets.

Wow. How excting for Labor. :down:

 

[PITbull]

Labor can't "police" their own. Go to your neo facist Republicans and ask them to change the labor laws that REQUIRE unions to represent the bad apples BY LAW, it's called duty of fair representation.

Then go back to your Neo Socialist Democrats who passed all of the original Labor laws in the 20's, 30', & 40's to change those laws so employers and employees can LEGALLY work together on things like employee involvement teams, product improvement committees.

While your at it go to the Republicrats and get the airlines out from under the Railway Labor Act to true collective bargaining can take place.

It's a VERY Republican concept. Allow the free market to prevail. Government interference in the relationship between private business and it's work force has brought several industries to ruin over the years, not to mention the onerous tax code and it's effect of capital intensive industries.

Some like me believe that a court ordered back to work order or 60 day cooling off period is nothing more then legalized slavery because the government is requiring under penalty of law a free soveriegn citizen into what amounts to forced labor. In a free and open society with a free market economy workers should be able to withold their service without government intervention, Secondary strikes should also be permitted and all government interference stopped.

A free market economy works best when it is actually free.

Now, this is profound.

Editted: And I must agree, however, with checks and balances in place.

 

[PITbull]

Bob,

I did add one thing to my post...."checks and balances" must be in place and present in a "free society, and a free market".

Why? Because in a free market place with a capitalistic environment, with absolutely no oversight, there tends to be greed and coruption, as history has taught us. 🙄

 

[UPNAWAY]

A free market economy works best when it is actually free.
[/quote]


Actually I don't disagree with any of your statements. I realize the system is less than desirable and unlikley to change any time soon. However,if we where all "free agents" making our own way we would all be happier!

 

[PITbull]

Bob,

In my heart of hearts, I believe the gov. bail out ATSB loans did more harm to this industry than any other post 9/11 policy.

The ATSB was the catalyst for the union-busting grabbers to bust the unions.

Truly, I believe that post 9/11, the gov. should have kept the tax payers out of any bail out, and permitted "survival of the fittest". At least a few airlines should have liquidated.

With regard to many of the employees....many either took a buy out or retired. The junior worker and furloughed would either had gotten new jobs with other airlines that survived at the rate they are at now or above. Many of the existing carriers would have taken up the routes and capacity if there was no ATSB bail out. Keep in mind, U was the first to race into BK twice using need to qualify for the ATSB loan as the reason for billions in concessions. AWA, took an ATSB bail out as well. United followed using the same reasons (ATSB) and never ended up qualifying...but hammered labor none the less because U had already achieved this. What followed was AA hammering their employees with historic concessions along with NW and DAL going into BK too.

At this rate, and with the current Bk laws, all the legacies will survive bk and what will utlimately be achieved is a race to the bottom in labor costs, and all competing at the same bottom level. Throw in highest fuel prices in history, and fares will go up, but not labor wages. Just Exec. compansation packages. The customer will ultimately fill the hit with many zealot managements trying to maximise profits with offering less perks and services to make up for fuel increases.

 

[smmech]

A free market economy works best when it is actually free.
Actually I don't disagree with any of your statements. I realize the system is less than desirable and unlikley to change any time soon. However,if we where all "free agents" making our own way we would all be happier!

Are you high...

 

[hp_fa]

The ATSB was the catalyst for the union-busting grabbers to bust the unions.

Thank the lawyers who find an angle to use any tool to deliver the goods to whomever is paying their fees. They found a way to use BK to change the way labor laws were intended to work and subverted the intent of BK. Notice how execs manage to get bonuses and incentives for successfully steering a company through bankruptcy and then take bonuses again after they exit bankruptcy?

Truly, I believe that post 9/11, the gov. should have kept the tax payers out of any bail out, and permitted "survival of the fittest". At least a few airlines should have liquidated.

Remember, the old U would have been long gone if "survival of the fittest" had occurred back then. HP probably also would have been gone too.

At this rate, and with the current Bk laws, all the legacies will survive bk and what will utlimately be achieved is a race to the bottom in labor costs, and all competing at the same bottom level. Throw in highest fuel prices in history, and fares will go up, but not labor wages. Just Exec. compansation packages. The customer will ultimately fill the hit with many zealot managements trying to maximise profits with offering less perks and services to make up for fuel increases.

The problem is the execs are generally a faceless bunch to the customers. They never see the customers face-to-face when things are going badly or the customer is not getting their expectations met. Sure, they get letters to which they can look at and pay lip service, but they won't be anywhere to be seen when the real anger or disappointment is being felt. Instead, the execs will be having meetings about what they can do to "solve" the problem without really getting to the root of the problem.

I remember when the deal had been made public, how there were even articles in the Arizona Republic about how Doug goes to church and donates significant money to the church. It turns out that while that was being published, and soon thereafter, Doug was lying to the workforce at AWA about contracts, money, etc. How does that square with being a Christian? Or, is being a Christian now a safe label to wear to obscure what you are really doing behind your back?

To say I lost "faith" in Doug Parker and what I percieved he stood for is a gross understatement.

 

[openview]

Then why does labor almost universal reject the idea of pay for perfomance or incentives? Why does labor whant all to make the same no matter the effort or contribution? Why does labor stand behind the bad apples and not police their own?

This is a very accurate reality. On the at-will employee side there is a money incentive to excel in ones position, change positions, or spend a career trying to get to the top. And many times and at many companies even great workers lose jobs during rough busniess periods.

On the labor side the focus is on job protection for all or equality in pay for all. There is no mechanism to weed out the bad employee or incentive to work efficiently.

The two concepts will never go hand in hand.

 

[jerseyfinn]

Some very interesting threads about labor, government and markets. But you leave out the most important factor -- human nature.

One can talk politics, but politics is ultimately about power and who is going to hold it and how it will be used. Government is both about logical coercion and the practical expression of the power paradigm. Elections are termed "democratic" but their real purpose is to stir up the pot and try to prevent any one faction(s) holding on to power too long lest they abuse it.

But it's money that makes the world go 'round. And we all covet money, both for the practical necessity of it and out of lust for more money and the sense of empowerment it provides.

At its best human nature can be kind & thoughtful, giving & hopeful. The flip side is greed & spite, hatefulness & blame.

Judging by the state of the American nation, its politcal ethos & its corporate climate at the moment, I'd lean towards the latter as being representitive of our times.

But political parties, governments, economics, corporations, and unions all have one thing in common. They are not real or tangible things. But we as individuals are indeed real things. It's our own words, deeds and actions that shape the world we live in, not a particular government or corporation.

There's always been a need for give and take. But I suspect that once momentum builds up to "take", our capacity to "give" gets lost in the rush. That too is human nature.

I guess that US Air, Mr. Parker, and the unions are in truth but a small part of the larger picture in this world. It would be nice though if management and labor could move forward to create an airline with a future. It always begins one step at a time -- but some times that first step is a doosie.

Barry

 

[PITbull]

On the labor side the focus is on job protection for all or equality in pay for all. There is no mechanism to weed out the bad employee or incentive to work efficiently.

The two concepts will never go hand in hand.

Last I checked USAirways has one of THE most draconian, harsh, morale-busting discipline policies in all of aviation. Its called the DCP plan (Dependability Control Progaram. Totally tight control of the employee is what it is. Each infraction (no matter how minute it is) elevates you to dependability step. After three steps your terminated.

The company's idea was to terminate as many employees as possible these past 4 years. And they have at that!

Weed out employees you say???? It literally captures the good ones too. Its was all about the numbers.

 

[PITbull]

But it's money that makes the world go 'round. And we all covet money, both for the practical necessity of it and out of lust for more money and the sense of empowerment it provides.

At its best human nature can be kind & thoughtful, giving & hopeful. The flip side is greed & spite, hatefulness & blame.

Judging by the state of the American nation, its politcal ethos & its corporate climate at the moment, I'd lean towards the latter as being representitive of our times.
There's always been a need for give and take. But I suspect that once momentum builds up to "take", our capacity to "give" gets lost in the rush. That too is human nature.

Barry

Nice posting, Barry and insightful.

Let me be the first to welcome you to this forum. B)

 

[diogenes]

This is a very accurate reality. On the at-will employee side there is a money incentive to excel in ones position, change positions, or spend a career trying to get to the top. And many times and at many companies even great workers lose jobs during rough busniess periods.

On the labor side the focus is on job protection for all or equality in pay for all. There is no mechanism to weed out the bad employee or incentive to work efficiently.

The two concepts will never go hand in hand.

--------------------------------------------------------
I disagree in part. That unions have protected slackers is certainly true - I've done it myself. Just like an attorney represents some skell he knows is guilty as sin. It's called duty of fair representation, and you or me would demand DFR if we were in a jam, too.

What balances that out is management's case. I can assure you, when managment made their case (documented, dotted i's and crossed t's), every issuance of discipline STUCK.

The ONLY time the union prevailed is when the manager had done an atrocious documentation job.

I don't think it's too much to ask the company to go by their own rules (the fleet service discipline procedures were the same after the contract as before) before terminating an employee.

JMO